I experienced my first run blow-up over the weekend at Vineman and am wondering what everyone does to root cause the issue if you feel the typical culprits were actually handled fairly well during the race.
—If you like short posts stop here —
Typical culprits being: Pushing too hard on the bike Nutrition Hydration maybe?
During the race I thought I felt good on the bike (good split for me but within my limits) and held to my nutrition/hydration plan which has been developed during training and many other successful races. Now I’m well aware the answer is probably that I pushed too hard on the bike. However, I held my goal pace and always felt in control on the bike. I never “felt” like I was pushing too hard. The day was warm but not overly hot (wave started @ 6:54 ;). I don’t believe run pacing was the issue as I held my goal pace for the first 2 miles (not real fast) and started to slow down until mile 8/9 where the legs just locked up.
On thing that threw me off a bit was my HR monitor decided to take a dive and simply didn’t work all day. I don’t rely on it exclusively so it was more of an annoyance than a real problem. Maybe HR was skyhigh and perceived exertion somehow didn’t pick it up?
PS- I now know the run blow-up can be horrible. The fact that “running” the last 2 miles at 12/min pace in order to break 5 hours is the most difficult athletic activity I’ve ever endured (by far) speaks for itself.
My answer won’t help but I’ve been thinking of the same thing since IMCDA. It was only my 2nd IM - in the first at Silverman I made it half way through the run then the light switched from “this isn’t so hard/bad” to “bam - how can running high 10’s be so hard???” - it was a switch. Happened exactly at 10 hours/mile 13.1 over about 50 meters.
Fast forward to IM CDA - had to swim a bit harder as the chop was bad but my HR settled on the bike. Bike felt much easier (and 45 min faster given the course) - never felt bad - HR nice and lower than plan…running along - felt great for 10 miles…then a bit tired for another 3 or so and then by 15-16 I was very tired…less of a switch this time but I thought I nailed bike pacing (power based), hydration was excess if anything, and plenty of cals/Na but result was still a very hard 2nd half of the run…why?
People like to talk about bike pacing as #1 and it likely is but I think its (obviously) complex and not always about 1 thing. Once you go past 7-8 hours, its such uncharted territory for most of us - who trains >7-8 hours (esp. at race pace)? Hard to get enough experience to track it down - and hard to have enough data to really look back and figure it out (at least I have difficulty doing it…).
You can look at:
Swim and Bike pacing: I had a PM so I can look at my profile and get a rough idea if I blew it (which I don’t think I did). Good to have some hard 100 milers to gauge which I did.
Run pacing - esp. early. I lacked the harder long runs to really have a good idea of expected time. I think I started too fast and had too little run miles in me…
nutrition - day before race, pre-race, during race - did you digest it? Bloat? Pee regularly (so gut working)…
Sodium - bag of worms…but how much? How hot?
Hydation - how often did you pee? How often should you pee?
Fat burning ability - I got roasted for mentioning this in a thread but if you aren’t burning >30% fat the entire race - you aren’t going to make it at race pace…I think this is a big player that nobody seems to take seriously…
Overall fitness: Can you simply get tired even if you pace by the rules? (i.e. IF roughly 70%, run at MP+1, HR guidlelines…). Why?
Sorry, to clarify- the Vineman race was the 70.3 (not the full).
In the two IM’s I’ve done nothing even remotely close to this happened. Everything more or less proceeded as planned in those races.
It sounds like not even a power meter can always hold off the impending doom. My original goal with this race was 4:45 and that’s what I paced for from the gun. I held that well until about 1/2 way through the run. It would have been nice to figure out this was “too fast” prior to my legs filling with cement. Oh well, at least I didn’t finish thinking maybe I left some in the tank and as always, it’s good data collection.
Last year I definitely hammered the bike at Vineman too hard. I came in 5-10 min faster that I wanted and I felt it on the run. From the start my legs felt like lead and I was slow the whole run and ran a 1:45 when I should have been faster as I had been able to run 1:48 on the much harder Wildflower run course.
This year I ahd a good bike and never pushed outside my limits and came in where I wanted on the bike split. When I started the run this year the legs felt great. Didn’t look at my watch and ran what felt comfortable. Still feeliing good at mile 7 so I look at my watch. I had run the first 7 miles in 50 min or a ~7:10 pace. This was faster then my planned 7:30 pace, but the legs were still feeling good and I had held it for 7 miles, so I don’t think it was too hard. Between miles 8-9 things came crashing down though. I started getting goose bumps, feeling chilled and bloated. I also started to slow way down to ~10 min/mile pace. In my case I think I blew up to dehydration. Don’t really think the pace in itself was too fast since i was able to hold it for 8 miles, but maybe the pace was too fast for the heat or I just had poor hydration. I tried to pee near the end of the bike and couldn’t which should have been a sign as I normally pee once in 1/2 at the end of the bike. I drank 5 bottles on the bike which seemed like enough. On the run I drank 1 1/2 cups of fluid between coke and water at every station but obviously it wasn’t enough. After I slowed down I made sure to get closer to 2 1/2 cups of fluid at the next couple stations and took 2 salt caps trying to clear my stomach. About mile 11 1/2 I started to feel better and could speed up. By the time I hit mile 12 I had extra motivation as I saw someone from my age group up ahead. I sped up to pass them and turned on the burners and was able to run a ~7 min last mile for a 1:43 on the run. My legs felt pretty decent but my stomach wasn’t. I was bloated and had trouble getting 2 bottles of water down. I didn’t pee till finally 2 hours after the race and then it wasn’t much. Hydrated well the rest of the day and started peeing regularly, my stomach cleared and I ate a lot. How ever yesterday I felt the affects. I felt very simular to having a really bad hangover, which i believe is definitely left over side affect of me getting so dehydrated. I would be interested in what others think though
Recall, I am guessing that you did not have enough bike miles in your legs to start off. There is no secret to a fast half Ironman run split…all you have to do is train lots of hard half ironman race pace miles on the bike. Ideally you’ll do at least one ride per week at half ironman race pace along with lots more bike volume spread through the week. Ride every day, hard, long, easy, hills, intervals etc etc etc…glue your butt to the bike seat
As a point of reference a 1:30 or 1;40 run split is not that fast in a fresh half marathon but it is way up in the age group field in any half Ironman…if you want to run these relatively pedestrian “fresh splits” in a tri, you have to come off a hammerfest 56 mile ride relatively fresh. No amount of pacing and nutrition will help someone if they did not do the homework…
…now, I am jumping the gun a bit, but did you ride 200-250 miles per week for the past 6 months before your half?
First off, you certainly don’t need to average 200 - 250 miles/week to perform well at HIM distance. Secondly, the dude hasn’t given us one bit of info on his training and your first guess is that he didn’t have enough bike miles in his legs start with. Huh??
Recall,
As you might noticed already there’s been at least a couple of threads on run meltdowns at Vineman and lots of discussion after the race too. My suspicion is that many of us, including myself, underestimated our fluid and calorie requirements for that specific day. As Dave mentioned in another thread, a full wetsuit in 77* water is something to take into consideration yet I know it didn’t even cross my mind. I did my normal thing – I should have known better. Take a hard look at your hydration/nutrition on the day. The answer might lie there…
Dev, I agree with you that more training equals a better time ;). I was intentionally not trying to bring up training volume and split times because I’m more concerned with the potential indicators we might be able to pick up on during a race rather than focusing on coming in unprepared. I’m conceeding that the issue probably was I tried to go too hard for my amount/level of training (despite the fact I felt good on the bike); do you have any advice on signs that can be picked up on next time to indicate you’re pushing the bike too hard (this is mostly independent of training volume coming in)?
Lakerfan, yes I’ve seen the other threads and and am definitely taking this into account. I actually think it was probably a combination of hydration, nutrition and pushing too hard. Maybe 4 bottles and 700 calories total on the bike wasn’t enough…
Man, I am way screwed if I need 200+ miles per week for 6 months to have a good Bike split and a good Half IM. Does that mean for Full IM I should quit my job and ride 400-500 miles per week? Just tell me, I’ll do whatever it takes.
Someone else alluded to it, but 200-250 miles per week on the bike is NOT necessary for a decent HIM run split. I know More is More, but come on… That’s 11-16 hrs a week on the bike alone, add in swim and run and you are looking at 18-24 hr/week training schedule. Quite a bit for the average AG’er.
I know its blasphemy to say such a thing on slowtwitch, but I honestly believe 10-12 hrs/week can be effective for the HIM distance, given a smart training plan…and a reasonable mix of 4-6 hrs of cycling, 3-4 hrs of running and 1-2 hrs of swimming (maybe a bit more if the athlete doesn’t have a swimming background).
To the OP’s question, I’d guess that the blow-up had more to do with nutrition, hydration than bike pacing.
If pushing too hard on the bike is truly a concern or is something you consistently see happening when racing then depending on someone else’s subjective definition of “hard” probably won’t get you too far. Have you thought about investing in a powermeter? I also believe HRMs can often be helpful too but you need to spend some time understanding your training vs racing HR characteristics.
Btw, if you do depend on someone else’s definition then training volume/intensity will make a difference. If Dev’s total training stress on a weekly basis is much greater than yours then his point of going too hard will be relatively different than yours. If you really want a semi-accurate answer then you need to provide much more detail, imho.
Recall, the main indicators that I use in Half Ironman bike pacing is “no sustained leg burn” and “no sustained sucking wind”. I’ll go there every so often to pop over a hill, or pass someone, but if you minimize “lighting those matches”, the legs will be good to go for the run. Regardless of preparation and how many miles I have in my legs, in a given year, if I listen to these indicators, I always run strong. Basically if I have done less biking, my legs burn at a lower intensity and I have to back it off earlier to save them for the run. As my bike fitness advances, I can put out more watts with minimal to no leg burn, do a blazing bike split (for me) and still have running legs.
To Lakerfan and JPFlores, I do agree that you don’t neccessarily need 200-250 mile weeks for several months, however, I can pretty well guarantee that if you do this, your run split will be right up to your expectations. Yes, there are lower time investment ways of getting to a good half Ironman run split, but in my experience on my n=1 sample as well as all my studly Ironman Kona qualifier buddies, the age group guys hauling ass at Half Ironman all happen to be training for Ironman. There is the odd Olympic distance stud that moves up and kicks ass, but in general, most of them don’t have the bike miles to pull off a fast Half Ironman run.
In the pro ranks, things are different. The ITU guys train 20-30 hours per week so they have the bike miles to do a hard 56 miles and then run full blast. They usually beat the ironman pros.
Recall, the main indicators that I use in Half Ironman bike pacing is “no sustained leg burn” and “no sustained sucking wind”. I’ll go there every so often to pop over a hill, or pass someone, but if you minimize “lighting those matches”, the legs will be good to go for the run. Regardless of preparation and how many miles I have in my legs, in a given year, if I listen to these indicators, I always run strong. Basically if I have done less biking, my legs burn at a lower intensity and I have to back it off earlier to save them for the run. As my bike fitness advances, I can put out more watts with minimal to no leg burn, do a blazing bike split (for me) and still have running legs.
To Lakerfan and JPFlores, I do agree that you don’t neccessarily need 200-250 mile weeks for several months, however, I can pretty well guarantee that if you do this, your run split will be right up to your expectations. Yes, there are lower time investment ways of getting to a good half Ironman run split, but in my experience on my n=1 sample as well as all my studly Ironman Kona qualifier buddies, the age group guys hauling ass at Half Ironman all happen to be training for Ironman. There is the odd Olympic distance stud that moves up and kicks ass, but in general, most of them don’t have the bike miles to pull off a fast Half Ironman run.
In the pro ranks, things are different. The ITU guys train 20-30 hours per week so they have the bike miles to do a hard 56 miles and then run full blast. They usually beat the ironman pros.
Dev
Ok. I’ll bite…
What does “sustained” mean? 56 miles? 28 miles? For a period of 20min? Etc… Etc… Is it slight leg burn or heavy leg burn? How much wind do I need to be sucking? Am I the only one who sees a huge problem with defining “going too hard” using these extremely subjective terms? They might be somewhat meaningful but they’re only meaningful to Dev (that’s still a stretch) and nobody else.
I think we agree that the more time on the bike the better. But, running a ‘decent’ run split and not blowing up are two different things. The OP’s question was why he/she blew up.
Not to hijack the thread, but an interesting thing to consider is the delta between the open half marathon PR and HIM run split. I would argue that ‘decent’ is a HIM run split within 5 minutes of your half mary PR. Providing of course you didn’t soft pedal the entire 56 miles.
—