Dev, and others, a little XC ski equipment help?

Triathlon Forum
1

i’m investing in two new set-ups: a classic XC (racing) set up; and a tele set up for alpine style skiing. i’m coming back to all this after 30 years, so, i’m in the dark. i need help!

fortunately, it doesn’t seem waxes, colors, etc., have changed, so i’my buying a couple hundred dollars worth of toko merchandise (most of the kick waxes, lots of green base wax as a base for everything, most of the klisters, none of the spray, all parafin style wax in keeping with what i’m familiar; corks, scrapers, irons and the like). why toko? because i’ve got a contact.

i likewise have a rossi/rottefella contact, so, i’m heading in that direction. here’s where i so far am, and, keep in mind that i’m 6’2", 170lb:

  • Skis: Rossignol Delta Classic 206mm
  • Poles: Oneway Diamond 9max 160mm

i need a recommendation in the area of rottefella bindings, and, rossi is fresh out of boots for this season, so, i need another boot and i’m hoping there is another boot that’s rottefella compatible. i have no idea what’s compatible with what these days, and how ubiquitous the standards are.

can you recommend bindings and boots? and remember, this is classic.

now, tele, i don’t expect you to know about this, but maybe you do, and if you don’t maybe somebody else here does. so far, i’m leaning toward a rossi phantom SC80 ski, and i’m guessing 180mm but i don’t know. rossi doesn’t make tele boots, so, i’m thinking garmont, but, i’m open. also, i’ll need a rottefella binding that is compatible with whatever boot i’m looking at.

again, this is a lift-up, ski-down use, not backcountry, and mostly on groomed mountains.

a little help out there? anyone? anyone?

2

This is music to my ears. Buying both telemark and cross country equipment, way to go!!!
Cross country
I was just back in Norway and talked to some friends that are running Norway’s best cross country store. The store have also helped the Norwegian national team with stone grounding in several Olympics so the guys know their stuff (more than me :wink: They would approve your choices so you cannot go wrong.
The Rottefella binding is really good. My 70 year old dad has tried it this season and he said it is the best he ever tried, light, stabile and gives you good control. Also if it is good enough for Bjorndalen and Northug it is good enough for us mortals. When it comes to boots, fit is most important (you know that fir is the most important :wink:

Telemark
I have to put in a good word for Rottefella’s new NTN binding system. It is a lot better than the old. The binding has always been the weak part of telemark skiing. Even back in the soft boots days of the 80 (I start teleskiing in jr high). A friend of mine was the project manager for the NTN so I guess I am not totally objective, but with today’s boots and fat skis you need a good binding.
Enjoy this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71xPokg-yLM&feature=related

3

I’m a big fan of Alpina boots, which fit the NNN binding system. Obviously there is the question of whether it fits your foot, but I believe that it comes in a narrow model as well as their standard last which is quite wide. The SCL model has the “Posi-Fit” heel locking mechanism which is a nice way to fine tune the fit and restrict heel movement, and the lacing holds the foot nicely.

The Delta Classics skis should come with a NIS mounting plate, which would mean that you’d need an R4 binding. The main difference between the R3 binding and the R4 is that the R3 is drilled into the ski while the R4 snaps onto a mounting plate that is bonded to the ski at the factory.

4

“The Rottefella binding is really good.”

by this i take it you mean its NIS system? i’m looking at the R4 Classic. please advise if i ought to be thinking something else.

TELE: i’m looking at the cobra r4 and cobra r8. i don’t think these are synonymous with the NTN system. do you have a view about these bindings?

one thing: i’m looking at tele as opposed to randonee. however, i’m torn. i don’t really know, functionally, what’s the difference once you’re up on the mountain. any info you have i’d appreciate. but whatever it is i do, i want to make sure i buy something that’s compatible with the other stuff i’m buying. so, i don’t want to buy a randonee binding and a tele boot that don’t go together.

i think i already know that with the NIS classic XC binding i’m good with rossi, alpina and fisher boots. i’m just living in fear of buying stuff that doesn’t work with the other stuff.

5

You wrote:

*by this i take it you mean its NIS system? i’m looking at the R4 Classic. please advise if i ought to be thinking something else. *

This is what Rottefella is writing about the R4
R4 Racing Classic have been specially developed for the NIS system and are used by world class skiers. The close contact between ski and binding offers an optimum energy transfer from skier to ski. In order to ensure perfect individual fitting, the R4 bindings have interchangeable front flexors available in three different hardnesses.

You should be safe with the R4, R4 is a binding within the NIS system http://www.rottefella.no/...h/start_langrenn.htm
You wrote:

TELE: i’m looking at the cobra r4 and cobra r8. i don’t think these are synonymous with the NTN system. do you have a view about these bindings?
The Cobra bindings were good, but you will find better bindings now. NTN is a lot better. The classic cable binding is the weak link in Telemark

You wrote:
*one thing: i’m looking at tele as opposed to randonee. however, i’m torn. i don’t really know, functionally, what’s the difference once you’re up on the mountain. any info you have i’d appreciate. but whatever it is i do, i want to make sure i buy something that’s compatible with the other stuff i’m buying. so, i don’t want to buy a randonee binding and a tele boot that don’t go together. *

If you are going to use lifts I would either go with telemark or alpine. Randonee is backcountry alpine, a way to walk up like telemark and ski down like alpine. You can see the difference here, telemark http://www.backcountry.com/...lemark-Bindings.html , randonee http://www.backcountry.com/...ouring-Bindings.html
The new NTN boots can be used with randonee bindings. That is not the case with the 75mm telemark boots.

6

so, back to tele for a minute, you’re saying hold out for NTN, and, go for an NTN-specific boot. this, i’ll be pairing with a rossi phantom sc80 ski i 180cm. i’m good to go?

i’m assuming that, as opposed to the NIS system for XC, i’m drilling/mounting the NTN bindings myself? no plate, or anything like that?

7

I am not a mounting expert; I always let the store do that. But I assume you are more technical than me (that is not hard).

Rottefella has information on their site in English http://www.rottefella.no/english/start_telemark.htm

Your Rossignol skis look great. All mountain skis are versatile and will give you a lot of good skiing under different conditions. I use all mountain skis myself when I ski and when I work as a ski instructor.

8

NTN is the new format and does not use a traditional duckbill toe, and instead uses a “second heel” to attach to the boot.

I’ve been skiing NTN bindings for the past three years and it provides significantly more control and power over the ski than a cobra binding would.

There’s been a number of good discussions about this over on telemarktips.com

http://www.telemarktips.com/RevNTN07.html

The binding has been sound out the gate, but Scarpa has had some problems with their boots which have been resoloved after two very rough years of growing pains.

These would be more than enough boot and binding to move a 18o cm phantom.

9

Unfortunately, my household is 100% Saloman Pilot bindings on all skis and all the pairs of skis are Fischer aside from one of my son’s pairs which are Atomic.

Did you buy a snowmobile and tracksetter for your ranch?

10

Dan, the San Gabriels are going to get DUMPED on next week! You should have PLENTY of cross country terrain by midweek!

11

i’ve not bought the snowmobile / track setter yet. what i did buy is a set of season passes for the misses and i, at mammoth, so, it’s up there, back down, up and down again, learning, so that i’m a bit more knowledgeable / proficient on the new equipment when i finally take the track setting plunge. as another person just wrote, we should, if it gets cold enough, get a bit more snow in my area this week. i’m learning as fast as i can, and i’ll invest in the track setting stuff when i’m ready.

12

x2 on the Alpina boots. There is pretty strong consensus among my friends that are still racing at the D1 and post-collegiate national level that they are making high quality boots these days. Personally, I’m not thrilled with my fischer’s.

If you are sure that you won’t be doing any time in the backcountry and don’t plan to skin, in my opinion getting an AT setup in lieu of a traditional alpine setup doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. As far as alpine versus tele - that’s a matter of personal preference and what you want out of your skiing experience. Tele is both more technically and physically demanding. I think it forces a closer connection with the terrain and the mountain and is much more engaging than traditional alpine, but it can be rough on the knees and you can forget about getting in a quality bike, run or nordic workout before you go out. Tele relegates your training to the late afternoon. It’s worth it though. I listed my alpine kit on craigslist two days after I started.

As far as gear goes - I think the previous post was pretty much spot on. The NTN system has more or less been sorted for a season or two, but the boots have left a lot to be desired. My local shop is staffed by a Cloudveil ambassador who has been working with Scarpa’s NTN boots. As of last season he cautioned me against them - figuring the boots were another season or two away from being really dialed-in. The problem of course is tele boots are $700 bucks, so it isn’t exactly cost effective to get the duckbills now, ski them for a season or two and then make the switch. So that said, I think you’d be really happy with a traditional cobra set-up. You don’t need a super burly binding to drive that ski, you just need a good boot that fits well. I’m 29, a very aggressive skier that’s on boards similar to your Rosi’s and it’s very rare that I find myself lacking in stability - and I spend 30 days a season on Maine’s blue ice. If things do ever get a little hairy, the boots have come so far that you can just link alpine turns until you’re out of trouble.

Try the Scarpa T1, Garmont EnerG and Black Diamond Push. Get whichever fits the best. I’ve been incredibly satisfied with the black diamond’s. They fit me better than the T1’s wrap design and felt stiffer than the Garmont’s. The guides at my mountain all wear the Garmont’s though - so they’re bombproof and in all likelihood more than enough boot to fit your needs.

13

you mention black diamond. these folks have their own binding, sort of like NTN, no? do you ride their binding with their ski? can anyone talk about the difference between this boot/binding and the NTN system?

14

Are you going to be doing much sking in spring snow, or will it all be squeaky stuff? Im asking, as I dont know what the snow is like out there, being from the NE. If you were going to be doing a significant amount of sking in conditions which were near freezing, and have widely varying conditions, I would put some serious thought into some of the newer racing ‘waxless’ skis. This really excel in the difficult waxing conditions, and if you are just getting back to it, and want to do more sking and racing then waxing, then it might be the way to go. Now, you still have to put on glide wax, but from the ones that I have demoed, and what I have used myself, I find it easier than getting into the whole classic waxing thing (selecting a glide wax is enough for me). Just a thought if the snow conditions warrant.

Stephen J

15

you mention black diamond. these folks have their own binding, sort of like NTN, no? do you ride their binding with their ski? can anyone talk about the difference between this boot/binding and the NTN system?

Traditional tele boots have what is referred to as a duck bill, the NTN boots do not so they look more like downhill or mountaineering boots. As telemark bindings are held in on the toe it matters and they are not compatible. NTN has been a bit slower than expected to take off with some of the big players not jumping in, others having the patents etc.

NTN has some really cool things, more versitile boots, step in, brakes etc.

As for the traditional set up the Cobra bindings are rock solid, they work great, simple, no hassles. IMO the black diamond bindings have been a huge disappointment, especially the O2 bindings although I hear the newer ones resolved some of the issues. I won’t even sell the ones I have in the basement, they scuk. I would stick with the Cobra’s or the G3’s which are very similar in design and very popular. Most of the new bindings have a touring mode which will let you climb with zero resistence like an AT binding if you want to use them to go up. Boots depend on fit, I have always been a Scarpa fan.

If you are using them for lift served mainly go big a beefy with the boots as well as the skiis, way more fun. These days 180’s are HUGE. I was standing in a lift line last week with 182’s and it was comparable to having 223’s back in the day.

Have fun!

16

Our small Nordic XC ski club just recently bought a small ATV (set up with tracks) that we pull the tracksetter with. This aparently actually works better than a snowmobile and does double duty in the non snow season when we need it to do tasks related to trail maintenance.

If you want to go down this route, I can hook you up with some guys who did the research and running the grooming equipment. I personally have no knowledge of what works better, but they seem to be adamant that for our small club with 5K of skate+classic trails, this was the best option.

I’m watching this somewhat keenly because I live next door to golf course that doubles as “public land” in the snow season. It was part of the golf course’s permit process going back 20 years ago. From Nov 15 to Apr 15th it is “free for all”, so when I am retired, I’m thinking of gettting one of these and being able to go out and set my own tracks and it would double as “community service”. I’ll also have to figure out a way to clear one of the ponds with this machine and build my own speedskating oval!

17

Black Diamonds boots and bindings are a traditional 75 mm set-up like the cobras. They are lighter and simpler than the NTN but do not offer features like a ski brake, no left/right, almost step-in entry and do not offer the power transfer that an NTN offers.

For my money 22 designs hammerhead is the best 75 mm binding out there and can be run with any traditional 75 mm boot, while the NTN can only be run with six boots currently.

Boots are a more selective thing and I just go with what fits best, not with what’s prettiest (like we SHOULD be doing with our bikes).

18

i’ve heard from both the 75mm enthusiasts and the ntn enthusiasts, and i think i’ll probably go ntn. i think the 75mm guys feel that ntn offers so much control that you really don’t feel like you’re telemarking anymore. but, i don’t know. i used to tele ski in my old xc racing equipment, so, anything’s going to feel like i’m all strapped in compared to what i was doing. (and, when i REALLY wanted control, i’d just put on my leather, ankle high, asolos and 3-pin it!

this seems to me much more complicated/difficult than getting the right tri bike.