Anyway, I was discussing swimming times with a friend at masters. I posited that for a competitively trained swimmer, swimming times fall off in the mid to late 20s.
Anyway, my friend was like no, look at Dara Torres she was faster in her 40s that she was in her 20s. While that is true, I countered without cheating, that it seems completely implausible that in the history of sports that 1 person is so much of an outlier. Anyway, there was the whole discussion of she never tested positive for anything despite being associated with a convicted felon doctor known to have dealt with known dopers.
Anyway, what is the current consensus on this. I need some info for the next time I go to swimming.
Swimming has changed a lot in the last 20-30 years. It used to be that you were “washed up” in your mid-20s but I think that was as much a function of how swimmers trained in the 70s/80s and the fact there was no money to be made swimming post-college.
As we see these days with guys like Lochte and Phelps who are swimming into their late 20s/early 30s, it’s possible to continue to improve much later in life than we thought in the 80s.
I don’t know if Dara cheated, I hope not. I do know she was an outlier talent-wise even by elite swimming standards. I also think the nature of the events she swims (50fr, 100fr, 100fl) are probably easier to maintain than a 400IM or 1500 just given the amount of training necessary (as we saw with Janet Evans’ comeback attempt). Plus, much of her “comeback” took place in the plastic suit era which probably gave her a .5 sec/50 advantage - a lot when you’re talking about a 50 or a 100 specialist.
Add to that better diet, better/smarter training, changes in technique, etc, etc and I don’t find it unreasonable that she was faster at 40 than 20. I’d be willing to bet other swimmers could also be faster later in life if they were able to train full-time and leveraged all the modern advantages – and if they stayed in top shape physically the whole time.
By “modern advantages,” do you mean undetectable PEDs. If so then I agree with you. Otherwise, seems like a Lance Armstrong thing all over. Let’s not forget that she has a known association with a convicted doctor who was dealing PEDs to known PED users. If that doesn’t sound like a Lance and Michele Ferrari type of arrangement I don’t know what would.
I’m quite surprised that USADA doesn’t go after all these outlier athletes who on circumstantial evidence seem shady. They finally got the cheating scum Lance, they should go after others who fit the cheater profile, even if they have retired.
Don’t they still keep the blood samples from the Olympics for testing at a later date?
Haven’t detection methods improved since she competed?
I was thinking more like better stroke technique, smarter workouts, better diet, more focused strength training/flexibility, better suits, and so on.
Who knows if she took PEDs, maybe she did. My whole point is that I could see how an elite swimming talent could have success later in life if he/she took every legal advantage.
Seems doubtful to me, considering she is the only one to do it.
Moreover, other than the advanced swimsuit technology which now is banned, there really hadn’t been a huge improvement in swim times in the last 20 years.
In 1992 Sandy Neilson-Bell went 26.8 in the 50 M free at the US Olympic trials at the age of 36. When she won gold in the 100 M free in 1972 at 16 the 50 was not yet an official event so direct comparison of times is not possible but her time in 1992 was faster than the first world record officially recognized in the 50 in the late 1970s.
I focused on the amino acid supplement she was taking, and her Resistance Stretching program.
I also think the nature of the events she swims (50fr, 100fr, 100fl) are probably easier to maintain than a 400IM or 1500 just given the amount of training necessary (as we saw with Janet Evans’ comeback attempt).
On the other hand, fast twitch muscles are a gift of youth. I find it more impressive that she was a sprinter than someone doing the same thing in a distance race.
She suffered from bulimia when she was younger (Gold in the Water talks about this, as does her autobiography). That can wreak havoc on one’s health and thus affect training.
In her 40s, she had quite the team of PTs, dieticians, etc. working with her.
My take is no drugs, but that is, perhaps, what I want to believe.
Pools are faster now, lane lines are faster now, starting blocks are faster now, suits are faster now, and starts(and turns) are faster now from when she started.
It all came in at different times, so not really that surprised that she has not slowed down over that couple decades+. I’m not convinced that training has improved that much, but it too probably has inched foreword a bit with all the analytics we have now. We are only talking tenths of a second here, so certainly within reason that she is as fast or faster. And 40 is not that old really, i think your body may have lost a really tiny step, but it is your mind that usually falls apart at this point. Keep your mind right and 40 can be the new 35…
I guess that is what all the Lance fanboys were saying as well. I’m highly skeptical of her achievements given the complete outlier nature of it. The fact that she sought and received treatment from a convicted felon who specifically gave PEDs to proven PED users.
Also, if 40 is the new 30 why aren’t we seeing all these swimmers being competitive until their 40s. Why is she the only one. Why is it that other sports don’t have the same success of achievement at old age unless the athlete was using PEDs.
I haven’t yet read your thesis. But there have been numerous studies on the effectiveness or lack thereof of dry land swim workouts. Seems odd that she found a miracle dry land workout and since that type no one who has used it has duplicated her success.
I guess that is what all the Lance fanboys were saying as well. //
The lance fanboys were saying pools, lines, blocks, turns, starts, are all faster in pools now as compared to over 20 years ago? Where and when was that?
You seem to have a real hard on for this, what is your beef with her? And care to address all the things i pointed out? Are you actually a swimmer, do you have any real knowledge about swimming? There are plenty of swimmers in their mid 30’s doing world class times. For her to have stretched it out for a few more is not that mind blowing. After all she was best in the world as a kid before all these super drugs, she would be the perfect candidate for someone to race to 40+. She did have to abandon the longer events, those she just could not maintain the training and speed for. It was just the all out 50 that was the last to go. No surprise to me either, been swimming masters for 35 years now, and the old farts seem to be able to sprint to the grave. Distance events are a whole other world to old folks.
I don’t think the stretching or amino acid supplement were, on their own, magical. I think she is a super talented athlete who put in a lot of hard work and did a lot of little other things like a different stretching program and the amino acid supplement that may have given her a tiny, tiny little extra bit of help. Those tiny, tiny things add up at that level.
No surprise to me either, been swimming masters for 35 years now, and the old farts seem to be able to sprint to the grave. Distance events are a whole other world to old folks.
this astounds me; as I noted previously, I assumed it would be the opposite
Didn’t she have some kids in the meantime too? That could have something to do with it. Most women don’t commit to training at a world class level again after having a kid because the kid becomes a priority so there wouldn’t be a whole lot of data points to compare. I haven’t studied this at all and have no facts to back it up, but I know there are a lot of changes that happen when a woman has a child and some of those changes could have a positive effect. My wife for example, she had a kid 2 years ago and is now crushing her times from before she had a kid. She is only 28 now, but her training volume is way down compared to before, and she doesn’t recover as fast from workouts. It could be superior coaching (I am her coach now:), but other factors are that she is lighter now by a few pounds and a little smaller “up top” (she would be embarrassed for me to tell you that) among other things. One thing I can guarantee is that she doesn’t take any PEDs, she doesn’t even take any supplements, just food. So N=1 a woman can come back stronger and faster as she gets older under some circumstances due to natural physiological changes. *Results probably not typical.
The point is pools, lane lines, suits are faster for every swimmer. So those advances should net out for everyone. So sure it is conceivable she could be faster all other things equal. Except for the fact that she was 40+ years old, no other swimmer has ever done it then or since. And she was being treated by a convicted felon who was giving PEDs to known and proven PED users.
So I suppose it is possible she is just that awesome, but it flies in the face of pretty much every sort of circumstantial evidence there is.
How many female 40+ year olds are in the Olympics.
I suppose all the other athletes weren’t talented, putting in the hard work or taking other legal supplements etc.
Shockingly there is no proof that this supplement does anything. While the PEDs her doctor was giving to other athletes have known and proven benefits.