Daniels Running Formula Related Questions

Triathlon Forum
1

Hey guys, for those of you that are familiar with Daniels Running Formula book and his methods, I have a several related questions that I am looking for some advice and clarification.
Little background info, recent 5k race 19:35, VDOT 51, at 50mi/week now, off season goal elevate the running to the next level, am a mediocre triathlon and open runner racing HIM distance, my HIM PR split 1:37, shooting to run sub 1:25 open half in April 2010 in order to give myself a chance to run sub 1:30 HIM split in 2010 season. I am looking to do the following in order to improve my running in general:

  1. increse speed at VO2 max (this is only for general running fitness reasons, damn I want to become a fast runner)
  2. increase speed at threshold
  3. increase endurance at threshold

I am going to achieve it through:

  1. volume up to 70mi/week
  2. use Daniles 5-15k program to achieve no1. and no2 above
  3. than switch to his half/marathon program in Dec-April to work on no3. and continue with no1 and no2 above

He seems to advocate some principles that have been labeled as a no-no for us mortals in most of the books I read so far:

  1. 5-15k program has 3 quality sessions a week of which 2 are track work and than he adds long runs on top of that, is that too much to attempt? That is a total of 4 quality runs when you include the long run.
  2. Due to travel every other week, I am forced to run his R-pace and I-pace runs on asphalt, should I be doing that?
  3. How do you understand his “hard pace” being mentioned in marathon/half marathon program, he defines well “I” and “R” pace, than he mangles it explaining “hard pace”, those runs are clearly not labeled as I or R. Is that something in between?

Thanks for reading all this.

2

I read that you are doing it to improve running in general, but will you be swimming and biking also? I ask because doing his Q1,2,3 workouts will be (IMO) very stressful with 2 other disciplines in the mix. His book is an excellent resource, but it is for running only. If you are doing a block of running only in your training, I’d say go for it. I have found that there is a difference between runners and triathlete runners. Runners will be balls out for a race because they only do that race, triathlete runners are geared more for survival because it is the third leg of one big race. Daniels does not take that into account in his training. Hope this helps.

3

You’re making to much out of this. Your 3 goals can be simplified into 1, “get faster.”

I haven’t read my copy of Daniels’ in a while, but I think given your speed and goals you are being a bit ambitious. My VDOT is right around 60. For the majority of the year, my run training is pretty simply. Try to run nearly everyday, a minimum of 6 times per week.

1 long run.
1 Tempo run (either Daniels’s Cruise Intervals or a steady tempo run of ~20min, with a W/U before and C/D after).
Hill repeats (either 8-12 repeats up a short hill, or 2-4 repeats up a longer, more gradual hill).
My other 3-4 runs per week or simply “get out the door” runs of 35-60 minutes.

I would definitely advise you against running anything at I and especially R pace.

By the way, what do you weigh? Not trying to be rude, but 19:35 sounds slow for a 50mpw guy.

4

Ok a few observations:
-your 5k is a vdot 51, and your half iron PR is a vdot 50
-my guess is that you would get more zing from getting your endurance up a bit to get your half iron vdot 1 point faster than your 5k vs 1 point slower than your 5k
-personally i think track workouts at that level of frequency are not going to help you taht much- you seem to be fading by about 2 mins per HIM for endurance reasons beyond your 5k speed- so getting your 5k speed yet faster may not be that helfpul…

a few more random thoughts:
-have you looked at your bike pacing, and in-race nutrition? those can be big issues on the run
-you need to be very careful about injuries on the program below- 70 miles a week with 2 track workouts is a TON of volume- if you do it, you will have to be VERY VERY careful about ramping up very slowly…
-if it was me, (which it isnt) id do:
a) be 100% sure you are nailing nutrtition and getting enough bike volume and proper bike pacing
b) do only 1 track workout per week
c) maybe instead of doing track workout on track, do it on grass using GPS for pacing?
d) be super careful with the volume ramp up

5

Daniels has an excellent plan if:

  1. You are only running…Recovery is very important to impliment those workouts effectively.
  2. You have plenty of base and consistancy. 2 quality track workouts and a tempo run in a week (coupled w/ a long run) is brutal if you aren’t used to the workload.

I would examine your goals as well…Shooting for a 1:25 open half in order to assure a shot at a 1:30 HIM half might be a little optimistic…IME, triathletes will generally lose more than 5 minutes from an open 1/2 to a HI…My own difference was about 8 to 10 minutes (1:08 open…1:17 in a HI the same year)

I agree w/ swbk…you’re over thinking it…

Track on Tuesday…fartlek/brick on Thursday…long run Sunday/followed by a long ride…fill everything else in to about 45-50 miles of running a week/175 miles bike/12-15k meters in the pool…and you’ll do just fine…It’s not really rocket science.

6

+1
.

7

Thanks everyone for suggestions. I will try to answer questions and provide follow up info on everything I read so far.
I am 38, 5’9", 156lbs, about 6% body fat, whatever BMI that comes out to be, I am not built like a runner, more like a swimmer with cyclist thighs. Yes, your observation is correct 19:35 is slow and I mentioned I belive I was a mediocre runner. I am tired of being a slow runner. I am late coming to this sport and this was my second season completed.
Since I am in the unstructured/ off season mode, I decided it is time I adress my weakness. During this season my avg volume was about 15-16hrs/week with peak volume of 20hrs/week at which my run week peaked at 50mi, bike at 180mi, swim at 14000m. Volume is no issue here, I can figure that one out. My focus this year has been HIM and will continue. The volume in all 3 scales back during Build periods in exchange for intensity, and numbers 10 weeks out look like, 10000m/150mi/35mi with more interval work on bike/run, swim intervals year around.
70.3 New Orleans 4:47 30:43/2:27/1:44
70.3 Kansas 4:44 30:47/2:27/1:42
Redman 4:39 28:43/2:30/1:37

Swim and bike fitness are no issues here as I know how to address that and continue to improve. Bike fitness increase has been the most return on investment for me this season. Running always had my utmost attention and my entire plan spins around running, allowing adequate recovery for those efforts. This tri season I have not done any VO2max work for running or biking, it was all ME in character.
It is clear, that running is holding me back. The next three months I pulled bike to 2Xweek, swim 2Xweek, to allow running to progress. Last race I had was 9/19 and 5K run was 2 weeks after, no specific training for it, just after HIM recovery. I am reaching this week 52mi/week and continue toward 70mi/week at a 3weeks add 10% weekly, 4th week cut to 35mi/week. That is volume. Traditionally, so far 1 speed, 1 threshold, 1 long run has been the staple of my program, it seems I am hitting the wall or you may say maybe impatient with the lack of results with running. So I thought Daniels represents everything different from what I have done so far, so I thought I try that balls to the walls and see what happens. I have no injury history probably for two reasons, I am a late start with running and I have been very diligent in observing all injury prevention “rules”.
19:35 is VDOT 51 and for training purposes I thought of using those paces. HIM 1/2 split 1:37 is not used for run training pace determining purpose and yes a tri run split will always be a lower VDOT number than open. I thought that was to be expected. That is why I did not even attempt to tag a VDOT to my HIM run split. I only have one open 1/2 time from almost year ago 1:36.
I believe someone has a nice little chart of open vs. HIM/IM run time estimates. I believe open to HIM is about 7% increase in time, I could be wrong. That is why I thought somewhere sub 1:25 open to about 1:30 HIM split, obviously if all stipulations are met for the formula to work( weather, course…).
I don’t mean this to be this long, I apologize. And my spelling sucks, bear with me, English is my second language and spell checkers are a little complicated sometimes.

8

I’m doing a run focus for the Fall/Winter and am just doing the Marathon A program.

When it’s tri training again I’ll go back to my tri plan.

jaretj

9

Sorry, not be a dick, but I run 21min 5’s on 60mins a week of running (12-13k? ) and still can fake a 45-46min 10 in a duathlon with no specific training and I’m 48 and 178 pounds at 5’9" - I realise this is not even approaching fast, but as a percentage of training to relative speed, I’d re-think your running volume. I’ve always found that I get the endurance from the bike: running work is speed-specific. Next year (always next year, right?) I’m actually looking to get some real speed (relatively) in my running (sub 20 5’s; 42ish 10’s) for Du’s and Tris, but I’m pretty sure I can do it by doubling my run volume, which still much, much less than your volume. I’m doing a half at the end of the month on basically retained seasonal fitness, and targeting about 1:44/5 based on pace on longer du’s. I’ll let you know - and, again, based on only slightly increased run volume. By the way, the only other half I ever did was was when I was 29, and that was a 1:27, again, on maybe 2hrs a week…obviously, YMMV…(literally)

10

No, you are not a dick at all. You have talent, no doubt. I don’t. And if I couldn’t take criticism, I would have not been posting here. Also, if I had all the answers, again, I would be reading only the posts without asking questions.
I doubt I could do anything with your volume. Don’t get me wrong, I would love to cut back, the question is if that is a solution for me.
Never did I say that I have talent. I only have good work ethics and discipline to execute. I also enjoy structure. Those are my general strengths.
I have fall/winter to do something with my weakness. I thought, I use that opportunity.
Thanks for sharing and suggesting.

11

are you training your long run and easy runs at E pace? doesnt seem like you are, at 50mi a week with no quality you can go pretty fast, sub 19 at least.

do more tempo runs 20min at T pace, and M-pace training.

2-3 quality runs a week is great. you could get away with doing a long run/easy/tempo/easy/marathonpace

12

No, you are not a dick at all. You have talent, no doubt. I don’t. And if I couldn’t take criticism, I would have not been posting here. Also, if I had all the answers, again, I would be reading only the posts without asking questions.
I doubt I could do anything with your volume. Don’t get me wrong, I would love to cut back, the question is if that is a solution for me.
Never did I say that I have talent. I only have good work ethics and discipline to execute. I also enjoy structure. Those are my general strengths.
I have fall/winter to do something with my weakness. I thought, I use that opportunity.
Thanks for sharing and suggesting.

Thanks for your reasonable reply to my semi-ranting. I’ve found that, to speak to your like of structure and execution discipline, that what’s always has been a key (if not they key) for my run training is sticking to specific HR zones for specific effort training. Generally I’m only running at tempo+; AT or MaxV02 - because I’m not doing the mileage at endurance pace, I don’t need to worry about over-training or injury; I can get the optimal results out of very targeted training. Seems to me that focusing on raising your ability to run at a higher percentage of MaxV02 will get you better results with proportionately less running. 800m repeats at 10 second a mile faster than fastest target race pace or mile repeats at AT will probably do more than ‘just running’. I’d look at doing more on the bike, too, to offset some of the endurance work running. My 2 cents, based on what’s worked for me (admittedly may not be specifically applicable, based on physiology/capacity).

13

One of the guys in our running group had Daniels help him out while trying to qualify for the olympics in the marathon…since then he has helped the rest of us get faster. Mostly by doing mile repeats leading up to the marathon and the yasso. However I would mention that your open pace compared to your half IM pace may be optimistic. I can tell you that I’ve been humbled by the difference. I run a 1:16 open half and have barely broken 1:30…consequently I run a 2:46 open marathon and am being optimistic to think I can run a 3:30 off the bike. I think the speed work though is the key to getting faster…this of course can only be done if you have a proper base to handle the workout.

14

No problem at all on semi ranting. You also provided valuable advice. Speed is the key and that is why Daniels 5k-15k looked attractive but scary. However, after Jaretj’s post I gave Marathon A program a very thorough look and will use it with slight mods here and there to adress more speed when my body feels that can take it. Once the tri training resumes full force, than back to trainingpeaks and HIM work.
Thanks everyone for great advice.

15

Thanks, got it, studied it carefully. I will do that.

16

I hope it works well for you. I did it once before and had very good results.

Remember to keep the easy parts easy so you can do the hard parts.

jaretj

17

Hey guys, for those of you that are familiar with Daniels Running Formula book and his methods, I have a several related questions that I am looking for some advice and clarification.
Little background info, recent 5k race 19:35, VDOT 51, at 50mi/week now, off season goal elevate the running to the next level, am a mediocre triathlon and open runner racing HIM distance, my HIM PR split 1:37, shooting to run sub 1:25 open half in April 2010 in order to give myself a chance to run sub 1:30 HIM split in 2010 season. I am looking to do the following in order to improve my running in general:

  1. increse speed at VO2 max (this is only for general running fitness reasons, damn I want to become a fast runner)
  2. increase speed at threshold
  3. increase endurance at threshold

I am going to achieve it through:

  1. volume up to 70mi/week
  2. use Daniles 5-15k program to achieve no1. and no2 above
  3. than switch to his half/marathon program in Dec-April to work on no3. and continue with no1 and no2 above

He seems to advocate some principles that have been labeled as a no-no for us mortals in most of the books I read so far:

  1. 5-15k program has 3 quality sessions a week of which 2 are track work and than he adds long runs on top of that, is that too much to attempt? That is a total of 4 quality runs when you include the long run.
  2. Due to travel every other week, I am forced to run his R-pace and I-pace runs on asphalt, should I be doing that?
  3. How do you understand his “hard pace” being mentioned in marathon/half marathon program, he defines well “I” and “R” pace, than he mangles it explaining “hard pace”, those runs are clearly not labeled as I or R. Is that something in between?

Thanks for reading all this.

As others have mentioned, Daniels is intended to be a Running guidance, not text inclusive of a three sport discpline / weekly routine.

That being said, I will go with the assumption that all you will do until your goal race is put in Quality on the run, and duff some swim and bike workouts.

Your 5k Seems reasonable to get down sub 1:30, but you do not have the foot speed to obtain a mid 1:2x. While I am a strong advocate of the self fulfilling prophecy in running, I cannot will you to improve at that rate.

While you are correct on the principles of DRF, you are forgetting a key element, periodization / phases. You said 5-15K plan - do you mean red / blue / gold? I will outright state you should not be doing the elite / gold plan. The stress of that plan is intended for competitive runners who regularly get 2 Q workouts a week.

Your current volume of 50 miles a week indicates that by going up 8-10% every 2 weeks , and back down, repeat would take you about 6-8 weeks. This is of course with no additional stress. You can quite easily run a sub 1:25, (or sub 1:15 for that matter) without racking up a 70mpw. This is relative to talent more than additional mileage. By placing additional volume stress, while trying to add the DRF Q workouts, you will get injured.

To answer questions:

  1. I do not count E runs (which most Long runs are E) as Q.
  2. R and I pace work are only in certain phases, and thus, this shouldn’t always be an issue… see above… specificity.
  3. “Hard” pace is almost always T pace.

Short and sweet:

  1. Read Letsrun.com - this is where runners live.
  2. Get your 5k Down to about 18:30 (VDOT 54) , then consider translating that performance into a 1:25.
  3. Workouts in DRF are cookie cutter, i.e. they may not apply directly to your weaknesses.

Feel free to ping me with any direct questions.

18

One of the guys in our running group had Daniels help him out while trying to qualify for the olympics in the marathon…since then he has helped the rest of us get faster. Mostly by doing mile repeats leading up to the marathon and the yasso. However I would mention that your open pace compared to your half IM pace may be optimistic. I can tell you that I’ve been humbled by the difference. I run a 1:16 open half and have barely broken 1:30…consequently I run a 2:46 open marathon and am being optimistic to think I can run a 3:30 off the bike. I think the speed work though is the key to getting faster…this of course can only be done if you have a proper base to handle the workout.

+1

However I think you are being extremely pessimistic on your open IM time based on a 2:46, I run similar times and am targeting a 3:10. IMHO there is a big difference between foot speed for a Half and a Full. Therefore, I can see a decent runner (1:16!) hurting off the bike more than say in a IM where you wont ride as hard, and you dont take off as fast.

19

Your “issue” (I would think) is swim and/or bike fitness. A 1h30 half marathon is a “walk in the park” for you.
You are burning too many matches in swim and/or bike.

Fred.

20

How come BarryP never replies to these threads??? Dude knows the book by heart! Backwards and forwards!