Background: I’m into bikes. I’ve got a stableful and I ride them a lot (12,000 miles or more most years). I was an early adopter of Di2 and have had DA di2 on one bike and Ultegra di2 on another. Msny miles on both. Wanted a really light road bike for rides in the mountains so I got an R5 a short while back. To keep it light, I went with 2012 SRAM Red. Very nice, but it was like going from automatic back to manual transmission. But I love the lightness (sub-15) and, as a total package, the bike has turned out great.
I had the Ultegra di2 on a Venge. Flawless performance, but a bit of a pig. I have friends who ride the Venge and boast of builds in the low 15 pound range. Mine was pushing 17. So I took the plunge and converted her to DA9000. I’m now convinced my friends were lying about low-15 Venges, but with pedals and cages mine is now sub-16.
But the performance of the DA9000 group is the subject here and I must say it’s quite remarkable … To the point that I can’t quite figure why anyone would buy Di2 with this available and so much less expensive. Front derailleur shifting blows my mind. It hardly requires any more effort than it takes to press the di2 button to execute a flawless front shift. The lever throw to go to the big ring is surprisingly short and the whole thing is done in the blink of an eye. I read a lot of praise about SRAM’s YAW front derailleur. It’s not in the same league at all. It requires a far greater lever throw that’s more lengthy in time to execute, as well. And whereas the YAW derailleur has no trim adjustment, but needs it, the DA9000 FD has multiple trims and doesn’t seem to need them.
I sent my 2011 Firecrest 404 rear wheel to Wheelbuilder.com and they updated it for Shimano 11 compatibility for $225 which included return shipping. The wheel was gone for ten days which spanned Christmas and New Years. I had the Venge built and ready when the revamped wheel arrived. I popped on the 11 speed cassette, dialed in the rear derailleur in about 2 minutes and took off for a 45 mile ride. Just like the front, the lever throw to move the chain towards the wheel on the cassette is remarkably short and quick – far shorter than for any mechanical group I’ve ridden. Give it a bit larger lever throw and it jumps three cogs as easily and quickly as DA 7900 would do one. Just as I said with the FD, the RD actuates with barely any more effort than it takes to push a di2 button.
I’m using Omega brakes (work perfectly well with the DA9000 levers) and the S-works cranks that came with my Venge, so I have no review of the DA9000 brakes or crankset. It is noteworthy that there’s no issue running the 11-speed chain on my S-works crankset.
This is impressive stuff. At least, I’m impressed so far. I just thought I’d share.
.
Back To the point that I can’t quite figure why anyone would buy Di2 with this available and so much less expensive.
Agreed, but I think the killer app of di2 is to have shifting at the tips of one’s aerobar extensions plus on the basebars (or drop bars).
That’s something no mechanical group can do (well, at least not yet … ).
**That’s something no mechanical group can do (well, at least not yet … ). **
Au contraire.
I should probably have qualified that I was talking about road bikes … though as a TT guy who has also had a TT bike with Di2 and with the brifters, I thought they were pretty useless and ultimately removed them. (Currently have a Shiv and a P4 … fully mechanical.) The courses in my area aren’t often that hilly or technical and, even when they are, I stay aero to the maximum extent possible. I rarely race a course without one or more pre-rides so I know what gear I’ll need coming out of a turn and I know how to find it while I’m decelerating for the turn. Others have argued with me that they see value in having them for the initial run through the gears as they’re leaving the start line. I’ve always picked a gear that’s easy to get rolling and, by the time I’m about to get spun out in that gear, I’m already aero and can shift all I want. When I had the brifters, I never used them and never considered using them off of the start line.
Actually, you’re right, xtr did have a small “in-line” system for mtb bar-ends. I learned something new.
Wonder if it could ever be adapted for a non in-line system as you’d need for a tri bike?
At least one. JTekt (or something similar) had a TT system but it looked clunky to me.
Actually, you’re right, xtr did have a small “in-line” system for mtb bar-ends. I learned something new.
Wonder if it could ever be adapted for a non in-line system as you’d need for a tri bike?
The XTR system worked by having mini-cables connecting the paddles on the bar-end shifter to the corresponding paddle on the main shifter (the main paddles had small holes in them to run the cables through). So the shifting still happened at the main RF+ shifter, it was just activated remotely. For a TT bike application, you would need to have an auxiliary cable run up to the TT shifter on the aerobar and move that shifter. Not a realistic scenario.
What would be interesting would be a main shifting mechanism somewhere near the stem, but with two sets of cables / shifters, allowing you to shift from multiple locations. How you would execute that concept with aerodynamics in mind would be an interesting experiment in industrial design / function.
Di2 on a road bike makes little sense to me since the shifting is already so good but on a tri-bike I would not go without it.
Long 3 shift hills and crowded sharp corners make it virtually impossible to not be out of aero and away from the optimal gear. Di2 will soon dominate tri bikes the same way speed shifters and reverse gear patterns dominate motorcycle racing bikes.
I bet you could do a decent job with the internals of the Sram brifters. I don’t know if the R2C shifters work the same way with short push to shift up and a big push to shift down, but if they do I think linking them would be fairly simple.
Still If I desparately wanted a TT system, people have used their own batteries and push buttons on Di2. So if you want to hack something that would likely be cheaper/easier/better.
You have any bikes around with brifters that have external cable routing still?
Does it shift as well as those?
Our commuter bike has them and it always blows my mind how nice it is.
Do you mean like the old shimano where the shift housing is outside the handle bar tape, or cable housing outside the frame?
Do you mean like the old shimano where the shift housing is outside the handle bar tape, or cable housing outside the frame?
outside the bar tape
.
Thanks for the review and input. I’m thinking of getting a new bike soon and I’ve wondered if I really wanted Di2 or mechanical. Good input here.
This is what makes ST a great place to visit. Well, that and T3, of course…
Di2 on a road bike makes little sense to me since the shifting is already so good but on a tri-bike I would not go without it.
Long 3 shift hills and crowded sharp corners make it virtually impossible to not be out of aero and away from the optimal gear. Di2 will soon dominate tri bikes the same way speed shifters and reverse gear patterns dominate motorcycle racing bikes.
Wow … couldn’t disagree more. At least not up to now and this new DA9000 stuff. The flawless performance of the Di2 front derailleur (never, ever dropped a chain in two years and many, many thousands of miles) makes it a great choice if you’re riding/racing in terrain where you actually need to go back and forth between the small and large rings. I’ve never known a mechanical group to not drop a chain at least once in a while, no matter how well you have it set up. But the Di2 is perfect every time.
As for the importance of having it on a tri bike for pack riding, I wouldn’t know. I do a lot of tri relays (can’t run due to previous injuries and hardware in my leg). Most of the time, relay waves go off last or very near last. So I end up riding through almost the entire field. I can’t recall a single time when I’ve ever thought to myself, “gee, I wish I could shift from my brake levers 'cuz I’m spending so much time with my hands out there.” If you’re having that thought, having the ability to shift from out there is not your main issue. The point of having an aero bike is to ride it in the aero position to the maximum extent possible. You’re not supposed to be drafting or riding in packs and, when you are, the idea of “optimal gear” is … well, it makes me laugh.
yeah pretty much the only use case where di2 is awesome is people who have only a tri bike, so they can do group rides more pleasantly.
But then with the di2 cost difference you could BUY a road bike.
I’ve just gone from 9 speed shimano DA to older RED on one bike. Same cassette. I think the RED is every bit as nice in shifting. Its different and threading the cables through the shifter is a colossal pain in the ass, but Sram seems to have the routing down.
Still I think the most important factor for a road bike is is the hood shape. For long days the most comfortable hood shape probably trumps shift feel.
Jack,
The R5 has external cable routing. It’s the bike with the new SRAM Red.
When I first got the Venge, I put DA 7900 on it. It always sucked, but I think some of the suckiness was inherent in DA 7900. I got fed up with it and put the Ultegra Di2 on it. That got me shifting precision, but with a weight and aero penalty (the Ultegra Di2 derailleurs are big honkin’ things with big motors). But DA9000 on the Venge has been quite crisp and precise. I thought DA 7800 was quite a bit better than DA 7900 (and I did hang the DA 7900 on another bike for a while and I was still unimpressed) but I’m pretty sure you’d agree if you tried it that DA 9000 is something quite different. Of course, I have no feel for long-term durability yet.