Cycling only for weight loss - how much rest?

So I have this friend, who wants to lose weight, by cycling only. He CAN run 10k easy and he CAN swim 3K easy. But to lose weight as fast as possible, he just wants to put down as many Kms a week as possible.
He is a fairly good cyclist around 4 w/kg FTP

He can train 12-15h a week

How would you advice him to train and more importantly rest?

After now 12-13 days of nonstop cycling between 1.5 and 3h daily, he is starting to feel exhausted

Are easy recovery days as good as complete rest days?

Of course diet is being watched. That’s not the question 😊

Thanks

So I have this friend, who wants to loose weight, by cycling only. He CAN run 10k easy and he CAN swim 3K easy. But to loose weight as fast as possible, he just wants to put down as many Kms a week as possible.
He is a fairly good cyclist around 4 w/kg FTP

He can train 12-15h a week

How would you advice him to train and more importantly rest?

After now 12-13 days of nonstop cycling between 1.5 and 3h daily, he is starting to feel exhausted

Are easy recovery days as good as complete rest days?

Of course diet is being watched. That’s not the question 😊

Thanks

If the primary objective of your friend is to lose weight, he should first consider which form of exercise burns the most calories.

If he is going to train 12-15 hours a week, the bulk of those hours need to be easy zone 2 hours. This can sometimes feel painfully slow to a 4w/kg rider. And it can be very tempting to add intensity on hill climbs/ramps, etc so that the z2 ride becomes a tempo ride. Routes and terrain should be chosen to keep it to z2. The upside is this is an opportunity to really build his aerobic base, as well as lose weight.

Also, he needs to fuel on the bike. Thinking that fasted riding of that duration will help weight loss is going to lead to problems fully recovering. As he has just discovered. As a rough guide, for a 2-4 hour zone 2 ride, perhaps aim to consume about 1/4 of the calories burned. This might go to 1/2 of calories burned for rides that include any significant intensity.

A REALLY EASY zone 1 ride can be good recovery, and keep in the groove of regular exercise. Say about 45 mins, and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING above threshold. Water only for these rides is OK. When the z1 ride becomes a z2 ride is when the purpose of the Recovery Day is eroded.

loose?

Thanks you spelling fairy. Has been corrected now. I see how the whole post loost its meaning with that extra O

Great input. Thanks!
We live in a mountainous area (Spain) so Zone 1, let alone Zone 2, is almost impossible.

I hear you on getting enough kcals too, during training.

T

It must be more about how you can sustainably burn most calories week in and out, over a extended period of time, I guess.

Running burns the most per hour. But you cannot (IMO) run 1 hour a day for many days in a row. Cycling 2h a day burns more than swimming 3K a day. Also the total time spent (getting to the pool changing, etc etc) is easily 2h for swimming. So cycling wins, right?

You mentioned that your friend is watching his diet as part of this. That’s good, and it’s really the only thing that matters.

The specific amount of energy he burns and weight he loses will dictate his appetite and small variations in training intensity (they will be small as part of his total energy requirement) won’t adjust energy requirements much. In the end keeping his diet in check is what will dictate weight loss.

That said…. same as mcalista said - if total energy burn is the goal (is it?), then keeping intensity low (and in general a sensible fuelling strategy during training) is the surest way to make sure he can maximise volume, therefore total energy expenditure, day in, day out. Especially if he’s now exhausted - sounds like this volume is a big undertaking.

Losing weight and keeping it off (assumption that he wants long term weight loss?) needs to involve a sustainable lifestyle, and at present, seems this is not?

Perhaps a sidebar suggestion - drop back volume a bit and gradually work up to >12 hr/wk to make this manageable? As per above - he should still be able to lose plenty of weight (because he’s watching his diet 😊!)

Great input mate. Normally a healthy person with a good lifestyle and diet. But Covid 19 times has had him gain 15 kg 🤷. Just need to shed that as fast as possible.

It takes about 50 minutes to burn 500 calories cycling.

About 40 minutes to burn 500 calories running.

About 0 minutes to ‘burn’ 500 calories by not eating that 500 calories.

Your friend may end up disappointed. Regardless of your output it is very hard to be more than 500 calories in debt per day. In fact it is significantly easier to lose weight by reducing aerobic activity level. As volume increases the need for food increases. As intensity and volume increase the requirement for food increases substantially, making it very difficult to run a calorie deficit. On top of that trying to reduce calorie intake while training hard is a great way to get hurt. I would say your friend will be much happier with the results by focusing on proteins, healthy fats, fruit and vegetables with pure sources of carbohydrate (oats, rice, etc). Only use “sports” nutrition for training sessions.

So to answer your question yes take rest or very easy days. The only thing that changes is the carbohydrate intake.

Your friend may end up disappointed. Regardless of your output it is very hard to be more than 500 calories in debt per day. In fact it is significantly easier to lose weight by reducing aerobic activity level. As volume increases the need for food increases. As intensity and volume increase the requirement for food increases substantially, making it very difficult to run a calorie deficit. On top of that trying to reduce calorie intake while training hard is a great way to get hurt. I would say your friend will be much happier with the results by focusing on proteins, healthy fats, fruit and vegetables with pure sources of carbohydrate (oats, rice, etc). Only use “sports” nutrition for training sessions.

So to answer your question yes take rest or very easy days. The only thing that changes is the carbohydrate intake.

This has been my experience as well although it is more satisfying (to me) to eat 3000 calories a day vs 2000

The above, yes. I would never try to combine adding a lot of volume with also trying to lose weight.

Instead, a longer term plan analyzing your food intake balanced to training load is the better way to go.

I’d rather your buddy take a gifted period of building volume to build power. Then after he’s gained the power and lost the gift of the added volume start watching his intake as he returns to normal training volume/routine.

With the fatigue and demands of lots of volume ramped up quickly, your body demands nutrient to recover and perform. Not a good combo for losing the weight in a long term manner.

If he was dead set on this, really really low intensity 2 hours per day of upper Z1 could maybe do it. But anything starting to tap into glycogen is going to make you ravenous hungry. Then again, with Z1 being like 400cal/hr just don’t eat the 400cal!

What time frame are we talking about?

I (stupidly, although it worked out) signed up to do the Olympic distances/day for the month of June after being out of sport for about 25 years (and being 64 years old). I ended up losing about 12 pounds (i.e. 5.5kg).

I did the workouts at a pace that made them feel easy (and, boy, did it take a long time per day starting out), but I controlled my eating and did the exercise.

I started each day with a protein shake (160 cals/30g protein) and if I felt tired I added a regular Ensure (220 cals/9g protein). The protein is necessary to avoid the muscle loss. I ate 2 meals a day (that’s the rhythm around my house), but avoided eating the foods which I felt had too many carbs for my purposes. (My wife, fortunately/unfortunately, is a great cook.) I took more Ensure or the protein shake as needed to make sure my energy wasn’t bottomed out and I got sufficient protein for the day; the need for protein is considerably elevated when one exercises a lot (and, in my case, due to the increased intake necessary due to the increased inefficiencies of the system in processing protein as one ages.) If I felt I had depleted glycogen stores I made sure I got some carbs immediately after the workout so as to replenish them so as to feel fresh for the next day. (But never excessively many carbs, as I was burning mostly fat.)

By keeping my workouts easy I made sure I was burning (a lot more) fat and not catabolizing much muscle, since I needed to be able to come back each day. I also (when I remembered) made sure I got some caffeine 15-30 minutes before the workout to start the system putting the body fat into the bloodstream so it was available as an energy source at the beginning of the workout. (I’m using info here from over 20 years ago, so this may not be current, but it works for me.)

If the hills are too difficult, have him get a trainer. I ended up getting one at the end of the month because of the numerous (human and goose) obstacles on the paths that I was taking (one of which caused me to crash), and the workouts became much easier and were available 24/7.

In addition, doing the three sports allowed me to do much more exercise than I could have done with only 1 or 2. During the time when I was averaging over 100 Slowtwitch aerobic “points” per day I put in a week with over 42 hours of exercise. There is NO WAY that I could have done this focusing on only one sport; in fact my “points” were almost equal in the 3 main disciplines. Obviously, your friend should be able to maintain higher work intensity at the same level of perceived exertion than I did.

Finally, if it’s that important, why is your friend only limited to 14-15 hrs/week? I found by going more “gently” I needed less sleep, and if he can get away with 1 hour less sleep and use it for training, he can up his training time by 50%.

I hope this helps, and contact me if you have more questions.

I don’t know what other constraints you’re dealing with, but I’d personally do something like:

Mon - Off
Tue/Wed/Thu - 1.5-2.5hrs Z2 out of bed, stay fasted first ~90min
Fri - 30-60min ez recov spin
Sat - ~2hrs with some intensity
Sun - 3-5hrs Z2, fasted first ~90min if possible
.

We live in a mountainous area (Spain) so Zone 1, let alone Zone 2, is almost impossible.

I live in a mountainous area. Just ride slow uphill…

If he is already a decent cyclist he should be able to ride 15 hrs/wk at low exertion without issue. You say nutrition is good, but it could just be the calorie deficit dragging him down. That takes some adaptation time.

IME running works much better for getting lean vs cycling.

5 years ago…I lost 60 lbs. It took 9 months at an average deficit of 750 kcal / day. My experience was this:

High intensity will drive appetite, and calorie restriction will delay recovery. So, its a losing (only one “o” :wink: battle. I also found that glycogen depleting workouts (even loooong z1/z2 efforts) drive appetite. So, even base-extending types of workouts seemed to end up being either calorie neutral or positive. Otherwise, again, I found myself descending into a losing battle for recovery. Anything that required me to bring nutrition was counter-productive. For me that limited things to about 90-120 minutes of training max per day…and, I stayed away from any threshold / Sweet-Spot type stuff.

I found that normal daily activity helped me drive weight-loss better than “training”. So, I planned to go for numerous walk-breaks throughout the day. That worked better than trying to burn 1500 calories on the bike. I set a daily calorie burn goal, and tried to incrementally achieve that throughout the day rather than in one big training session.

I think a day completely off is important, particularly when you are working in a calorie deficit. No matter what, even with the above guidelines, that’s still going to delay recovery. So, a day completely off helps to get back on top of things.

I found that 750 kcal / day was the maximum sustainable deficit for me. Anything more than that, and I just couldn’t recover week over week. Frankly, there were days/weeks where it was hard to eat that small of an amount of food. Some food is needed for recovery. Adjustment of expectations may be required.

In short:

  1. Limit intensity to z2 as much as possible and avoid z4/5…or anything that depletes glycogen stores.
  2. Limit durations to what you can accomplish without extra nutrition (again, without depleting glycogen significantly).
  3. Keep general daily activity up…with walking or similarly very low intensity stuff. Just keep moving, all day long.
  4. Take a day completely off to help stay on top of recovery.
  5. If he’s still augering in on recovery, cut the deficit to a more manageable level…and adjust weight-loss rate expectations.

Recovery rate is going to be impacted by how much of a calorie deficit you’re in (at least relative to what’s “normal” for you), so I would scale my training according to how aggressive the rate of weight loss. If weight loss is the primary focus you could get away with exercising a lot less and simply lowering calorie intake, but from the sounds of things training/fitness is still a concern so I think it helps a bit to know your priorities in that regard,
As others have stated, you have a fair bit more leeway when it comes to z2 work, but it’s still a question of balancing total stress with your body’s ability to recover, and the resources you provide it with to do so.

Your friend may end up disappointed. Regardless of your output it is very hard to be more than 500 calories in debt per day. In fact it is significantly easier to lose weight by reducing aerobic activity level. As volume increases the need for food increases. As intensity and volume increase the requirement for food increases substantially, making it very difficult to run a calorie deficit. On top of that trying to reduce calorie intake while training hard is a great way to get hurt. I would say your friend will be much happier with the results by focusing on proteins, healthy fats, fruit and vegetables with pure sources of carbohydrate (oats, rice, etc). Only use “sports” nutrition for training sessions.

So to answer your question yes take rest or very easy days. The only thing that changes is the carbohydrate intake.
Not my experience at all. 500 deficit (that’s roughly a 1700 calories intake for me) with no sports is though, because of empty stomach. On the other hand, if I spend 1500 on the bike, and eat 1000/1200 calories extra in a smart way (i.e., focus on high volume, satisfying food), I have a more than 50% increase in calories intake which my stomach finds a lot more satisfying, while being at a 800/1000 calories deficit altogether.

Lots of great input! There is no time frame, just sooner is better.

I agree on a lot of the “watch diet quality over diet quantity” (kcals) made. Believe he is following a vegan/pescetarian diet to follow through.

Will convey all this good info! Thanks a lot