Customer perspective: a microcosm of why GM deserves bankruptcy

The Coffee Shop
1

I had an issue w/ a GM product I owned about 11 months ago:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1755493;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=-1;guest=56542685&t=search_engine

It was replaced by a Subaru Forester, which we’ve liked and has been out only car for almost a year. New kiddo arrives, and my long-stalled promise to my wife has come due: her 1st brand-new car (she put 4500 of the 6000 miles on the Forester this year, but it ways always understood that it was my car, and she’d be next). We now have 2 little ones, and move/travel quite a bit, and wanted some room- we plan on driving the new cars into our 40’s- early 30’s now. Plus the rear-facing seat barely fits… Luckily, my 5 y/o daughter claims to like the Subaru- good! She’ll be driving it in 2020.

Figuring a good deal might be in the offing, I look into the 2008 Chevy Tahoe. A nearby dealer has several according to their website. I arrive, and find 2 sloppy guys sitting out front- stained shirts, ties looking like a 7 y/o tied them, and they remain seated as the customer (me) walks up. I tell them what I’m looking for- both sales guys still seated. “Uhhh… i think the company who does our online inventory is behind. No 08’s left.” Still seated, one yells in to another sales guy- “Hey! Any 4WD’s here?” Older, much better dressed sales guy comes out- he’s sorry, the inventory management company has not kept up, refers me to a place down the road. Who knows- maybe the dealer is struggling and getting ready to fold?

Next place- at least some polite attention. They pull an 09 up- leather and 4WD, high up on the wife’s list (let’s not turn this into a debate on car choice, OK? My wife has borne me 2 beautiful children, followed me all over the country- 6 homes in 7 years- and put up with my shit. She gets what she wants because she deserves it.) To take this thing home and let the wife drive it around the neighborhood, they need copy of license and insurance- no problem. Also this other “quick form”- a credit app. No, I tell the guy- I’ll write you a check. “It’s policy” he says. I pull out my electronic check from my bank, and tell him I can get anything in here, minus the Corvette Z06- amount stated clearly across the top. He asks the manager- “still policy”. I don’t like people pulling my credit if it’s not necessary. You’d think they’d see a guy with a large amount of money, in a hurry, and they’d have a pretty good idea they’d make a sale. I even offered a copy of my military ID- still “policy”. Told the guy that letting someone run my credit when it’s not necessary is against my own policy, and that I’d take my business elsewhere. He follows me out, telling me a credit check is no big deal, and that it was only a couple points on my report. I tell him I’m going to look at a Honda Pilot tomorrow, and would never set foot in another GM dealership.

I’m through with GM. The last one I owned was a pain- a shame, as it drove well on the highway, which was where I spent a ton of time in 07. I can only hope those twerps get no more tax money- or the years when they get it are years I’m deployed and tax-free. We picked up a Pilot for $3k under invoice on Saturday, and will get at least a decade out of it. Fits 2 kids, all our crap, and will be an easier drive for my wife. Dealership was professional, efficient, and it was an overall good experience. 2 of our neighbors here have them, and they’re well reviewed. I wish some of our car companies would take note. FWIW, it seems Ford be heading that direction. They’ve made some nice smaller cars recently.

I realize this may just be the idiosyncracies of 2 dealerships, but you’d think a dying company would do everything they can to get the word out to the dealers- the public face of the company

2

You should write those guys a letter to thank them for steering you to a Honda Pilot. Much better vehicle.

Funny, was switching the headlamps on my 97 suburban today. I was amazed at what a chore it was, it is so poorly designed. I have an 87 mercedes that is still better than today’s GM stuff.

3

I’ll write maintenance on anything off as a PITA these days. My '91 S-10 (1st car) was easy, though. My '98 Jeep Cherokee that I abused the living shit out of wasn’t bad once I got the right stuff- they would mix tools required- the transmission pan was English, but the bolts holding the filter in were metric. The pittman arm needed a torch to get it apart- ofter a set of gear pullers was bent. I think all cars are a pain in the butt to work on now, just to force you to the dealership for easy crap like new headlights.

That Jeep had a sketchy accessory electrical system, but took a ton of abuse. I still miss it.

4

Kind of reminds me of my experience home shopping a year ago.

We were offering the listed asking price for REO properties left and right, and were treated like crap by the banks’ agents. Made to wait months for any kind of response. I found it unbelievable that they wouldn’t unload a home to me in seconds once I’d officially offered what they asked. And I wasn’t a risky buyer - 25% down, a 15-year fixed mortgage approved for way more than was necessary. I was, figuratively speaking, backing up a Brink’s truck to the bank doors and asking to shovel money at them. And it took me 6 months before someone sold us a home, during which home values depreciated ~5%. I don’t think banks get it, even now.

I did have a sweet moment, though, when two months after I closed, one bank called and asked if I was “ready to move forward” on one of the offers. They hung up in the middle of my best attempt at a cackling laugh.

5

Ha! I got that same service at the local Porsche Stealership! Then again - the Big 3 dealerships here in town (as I hear in most towns) have nothing but horror stories in the sales depts.

And the POS Buick rental I had a few weeks ago…that car is a crying shame.

6

When I bought my Vibe last fall, I had the best experience ever at a car dealership, fwiw.

I probably wouldn’t wish bankruptcy on the whole company due to the actions of two of its dealers.

7

We picked up a Pilot for $3k under invoice on Saturday

That same Pilot will be $5K over invoice after GM goes under :wink: Taking 20% of the product out of a market will do that.

I’ve read some fairly detailed analysis which states that at least for several years, Honda, Toyota, Ford et al will not have the capacity to build enough cars to satisfy demand in a normal market if GM product is missing (we are most definitely not in a normal market now . . ) so car prices will eventually skyrocket if GM goes totally bust.

That might not be a bad thing for the industry but for consumers the days of cheap cars are probably coming to an end.

8

When I bought the wifey’s new Yukon last December, I got amazing service. I think this has alot more to do with the dealership than it does GM.

9

Please don’t completely hold GM (or any car company) responsible for how an individual dealership treats you. 90% of your customer experience as a automotive consumer is related to the management of the dealership, not the OEM Manufacturer. Do you hold DeWalt responsible for the crappy customer service at Lowe’s or Home Depot when you want to buy a drill? Not exactly the same, but a similar idea. Luckily the market (especially in tough times) has a way of shaking out dealerships who don’t add value to the process of buying a car.

10

I know you have valid points in your post but I think alot of your disappointment is because of what we have become accustomed to in this age of consumerism. You want to take a $40,000 vehicle for 24 to 48 hours with just an ID. Sure you have a letter from a bank, I’m sure some high school kids could replicate that in abut 10 minutes.
Maybe in the future if banks, credit card companies and even car dealerships verify a little bit more we won’t build a house of cards that will collapse so easily.

I don’t blame you for protecting your credit that is very important, but if your wife can’t find the time to come with you to test drive the vehicle it may be worth it to take the credit verification.

11

**That same Pilot will be $5K over invoice after GM goes under :wink: Taking 20% of the product out of a market will do that. **

Perfect.

Then maybe we will get serious about finding alternative forms of energy and transport.

12

Please don’t completely hold GM (or any car company) responsible for how an individual dealership treats you. 90% of your customer experience as a automotive consumer is related to the management of the dealership, not the OEM Manufacturer. Do you hold DeWalt responsible for the crappy customer service at Lowe’s or Home Depot when you want to buy a drill? Not exactly the same, but a similar idea. Luckily the market (especially in tough times) has a way of shaking out dealerships who don’t add value to the process of buying a car.
That’s exactly right. To the OP, you did the right thing, but this isn’t all on GM.

13

My Dad is Ford guy. He is retired now, but was a fairly high level plant manager when he retired.

He has written several letters to Ford about how he believes that the “face of Ford” for most customers is at the dealer level. He has been shopping for cars and has been more than a little disappointed in the service that he has received.

I have not had bad service when I have bought my Fords, but I have when had bad service at GM dealerships in their service departments.

Bernie

14

One thing that I’ve always thought was a bit strange with the auto companies in the US (both foreign and domestic) is that they do not require their executives to actually buy and service a car like normal customers. I’m not talking about having to pay for them (I don’t have a problem with execs getting discounts or even free cars as part of their compensation), but I don’t agree with the fact that they don’t have to get their new cars through dealers. If I ran a car company, all the executives getting a company car, from the CEO on down would have to go buy it from a dealer, negotiate his or her own deal, then get reimbursed if a free or discounted car was part of their comp. Same for service. Take to to any dealer you want then expense it. I’d even let them take the corporate jet to hit up out of town dealers by surprise ;-).

Once you get above the middle level of managment at an auto manufacturer, you don’t have to shop for a car, deal with a dealer, worry about service or even buy your own gas or insurance. Not everyone gets a free car but even pretty low level managers who have to pay something still get their new ones delivered to their home or the company parking lot. They pretty quickly lose a feel for what it is like to be a customer.

15

If GM goes bust the vultures will be in there so fast your head will spin. Either GM will would go thru a “Restructuring” and production would not be interrupted or within 6 months the same factors will be putting out similar cars under a different name.

That kind of capital isn’t just going to sit there doing nothing.

~Matt

16

That does not jive with how I remember it going for my Dad. While I was growing up, my Dad was eligible for something called the Executive Red Carpet Lease. Basically, there were certain cars that Ford had that could be leased by certain executives at a discount on 1 year leases. I think part of the idea was to get these cars out on the road and visible. I can remember going to Jack Demmer Ford (local dealership) with my Dad and picking up the car. It is true that my Dad could schedule maintenance for that vehicle while he was at work and he did not have to take the car himself. But he certainly had to deal with salesman to at least a small degree. My Dad also purchased a car for our second vehicle. This one he had to deal with the dealership for everything.

One thing that was available was the “B lot.” This was where the Red Carpet Lease cars went after they had been driven for a year. This was not a dealership lot. Ford employees could go there and buy those vehicles at a pretty steep discount considering that they were mostly high end cars that were totally optioned out. I bought my first pickup truck from there. But after the purchase it was pretty much like owning any other car.

Bernie

17

You will be very happy with your Pilot … our 2003 has 90k with nary an issue other than regularly scheduled maintenance. I hope to keep it for much longer.

We liked it so much we recently purchased a 2008 (for my wife … who also gets what she wants). We hope to keep it much longer also.

We drove the 2009’s but last year we could not justify the increase in price vs. the great deal we got on the 2008 (we paid less than what we paid for our 2003 and got more “stuff” in the car … a higher trim level).

drn92

18

…

I realize this may just be the idiosyncracies of 2 dealerships, but you’d think a dying company would do everything they can to get the word out to the dealers- the public face of the company

You do know that Dealerships are completely independent from the corporation, right. And that Automotive Franchises in most and maybe all states, have their own laws, which give the dealerships much more power over the Auto company than any other type of franchise. This is why it cost GM between $2 - $3 billion to buy-out the Oldsmobile dealerships when they closed them.

Unfortunately this is one more thing GM is stuck with, and many would argue its a much bigger albatross around the companies neck then the UAW. The UAW already gave in and would have had more then competitive wages in a few years, without the government stepping in. The dealerships wont budge.

19

One thing that I’ve always thought was a bit strange with the auto companies in the US (both foreign and domestic) is that they do not require their executives to actually buy and service a car like normal customers. I’m not talking about having to pay for them (I don’t have a problem with execs getting discounts or even free cars as part of their compensation), but I don’t agree with the fact that they don’t have to get their new cars through dealers. If I ran a car company, all the executives getting a company car, from the CEO on down would have to go buy it from a dealer, negotiate his or her own deal, then get reimbursed if a free or discounted car was part of their comp. Same for service. Take to to any dealer you want then expense it. I’d even let them take the corporate jet to hit up out of town dealers by surprise ;-).

Once you get above the middle level of managment at an auto manufacturer, you don’t have to shop for a car, deal with a dealer, worry about service or even buy your own gas or insurance. Not everyone gets a free car but even pretty low level managers who have to pay something still get their new ones delivered to their home or the company parking lot. They pretty quickly lose a feel for what it is like to be a customer.

Where did you get this information from? As far as I know all vehicles purchased or leased have to be done through a dealership. Now I don’t know about top exec’s but Middle management does have to own a company vehicle less than 2 yrs old, and they have them processed and pick them up at dealerships.

As for negotiating his own deal, all employees have fixed price purchasing, so if you do a trade in thats the only negotiating left. Of course everyone could have that pleasant experience if they shopped at Saturn.

20

If GM goes bust the vultures will be in there so fast your head will spin. Either GM will would go thru a “Restructuring” and production would not be interrupted or within 6 months the same factors will be putting out similar cars under a different name.

That kind of capital isn’t just going to sit there doing nothing.

~Matt

It would take months to settle the Debt and sell off the assets if they go under. And you can’t just buy a car plant and start rolling cars out. Where are you going to buy the Engine, ok buy GM’s engine plant cause thats the only engine designed to fit and it would take at least a year to redesign the engine mounts and all the accessories for a different engine, not to mention the vehicles you will have to crash test to make sure they meet the standards with that new engine, Oh ya and don’t forget you have to reprogram the car and engine management system cause you have a different engine. Ok, we got an engine and a vehicle, oh wait where do we get the transmission that mates to that engine and fits in the space with the right mount locations? Gearing right? How is the MPG do you meet emissions standards, what you got to test that also… I think you get the point.