Customer intimidation, Elitism and the bike shop experience

Triathlon Forum
21

"It’s our process that sets us apart. How do we make people see the value in that? "

I think you’ve gone a long ways towards doing it, at least as good as anyone else out there I know of. Your editorials that you have added in the last year have gone a long way to help in my understanding in a lot of these things. The other thing is by participating on this forum. Those two things were what brought me back into your store.

Also, I’ve seen on your website that you have held classes for learning how to change tires, etc. That also helps. And, by being maintenance at races.

I like the points that were made about customer service. There have been times where I have walked in your store and I’ve gotten the best customer service anywhere, it couldn’t have been better. Other times it’s been rotten (I’m not trying to pick on you, this is not exclusive to your store). I suspect this is largely due to the ebb and flow of business during the year. That’s fine for me now that I have a bit of an inside view of your daily workings and have had numerous postive experiences in your store, but for those that don’t…

23

I can’t comment on your shop, but I love my LBS and send all the women looking to bike shop there, telling them to let whomever they talk to they are a friend of mine. I know they will be well taken care of, not oversold or made to act stupid. What does the LBS do specifically?

From day one, they never laughed or acted in a condescending manner when I asked the same silly questions time after time.

Even if everyone is busy when someone comes in, they still acknowledge you coming in the door with a quick hi, be right with you.

Even though I didn’t buy either of my bikes from them (they don’t carry Cervelo and I bought both of my Cervelos at shops at a distance from me), they cheerfully work on my bikes and do minor adjustments with no charge. I bring in a case of beer every few months as thanks. And, I’ll buy my next bike from them.

They are always interested in how everyone is and ask about races and race results. And they care about their customers. Case in point…one of my bike race teammates crashed a couple of weeks ago and my main wrench and the shop manager were at the race and I talked to them as they loaded my teammate up in the ambulance. They also knew her as she had just been in there a few days prior. They went back to the shop and told the owner what happened. Clay (owner) called me to check up on her and then called her to see how she was doing. She’ll be doing all her business with them and is sending all her friends there.

So really, it’s all the little things that add up.
clm

24

  • I bought my first bike from a great beginners bike shop. They were friendly and took some time (not a lot but didn’t shove me out the door) with me. I ended up sending 4 people there for their first bikes. The best example is with my wife. She can be tedious at times. I suggested she call the LBS and ask when the slowest time was. She went in on a Tues. morning and forewarned them that she was going to take a while. They were very patient and answered all her questions and she loved the 4 hour process.

  • Now that I’ve got some experience and know more what I want, I’ve asked the LBS to help me with some more difficult things, done my way at their price and I find I’m no longer welcome. For example, the braze on for the barrel adjuster broke off on the bike they sold me. They aren’t interested in helping me fix it, but will sell me a new frame. I’ve asked them to order special parts (special as in michelin pro race tires) and they’re not interested. They say the Specialized brand of tires is just as good. I guess the summary is that I don’t want their advice or standard answer for your average weekend city cruiser and they no longer want to deal with me. Yes, I’ve made it obvious to them that price is not a problem.

  • In my business, we sell a highly customized and complex product. Often the customers expect to sign the purchase order and have a shrink wrapped product installed the next day, even though they haven’t completely figured out how it needs to work. It has been crucial for us to set expectations early. For example, “We install the hardware today, then you spend the next 2 weeks wiring it to your systems, then we spend 40 hours integrating it. Next you spend 40 hours testing and working with us to get the customizations right. Then another week of testing, then we go live. Total time from delivery to live - 2 months. The customer replies, so can we go live at the end of the week?” Repeat the schedule. Repeat entire schedule in every email and conference call until they stop asking. I like the idea of giving the customer a checklist of both what they must know/do and one-liners of what the LBS must do with rough time estimates.

  • Place a large sign prominently in your shop saying “It is the process that sets us apart” or whatever your phrasing is. Have all of your employees repeat it whenever needed and able to explain what it means. Every employee should be able to explain in 5th grade language and 30-60 seconds why the process is important.

  • Hire someone to be your personable side. It could be just someone who is an amateur with bikes but is friendly and approachable. This person can be the customer advocate/liason with the normal LBS employees. They really only need to be around during your peak selling times.

25

Have you thought about grouping the editorials on your website into categories? You have now gotten quite a selection, dealing with personal intrest stories/life, fiction, racing, and articles that talk about your process, your philosophies, and issues particularly useful to people not 100% familiar with your store. There’s a lot of articles to sift through, but you have a lot of useful information in those articles as well as entertainment, it’s a waste if they go unread because they are lost in the masses of it all.

26

Hey Jack,

The editorials on our site are very random, you’re right. Some of them are nuts and bolts, some of them are touchy-feely.

We hadn’t considered grouping them into categories but we do get some good story ideas for features on the main page from them and we watch the traffic to them carefully. It is incredible how many people from around the world read that page every day. It is literally thousands.

We haven’t made any changes since, based on traffic, what we’re doing now seems to be working. Our web administrator pointed to the fact that it is “infotainment” very different from what is available on any other site. People seem to want to see that, perhaps in the same way reality TV is so popular. I guess the editorial page is the “realtiy TV” of our website.

Another thing is that, as a writer, it is one more writing project I’m forced to do every couple days. Some days are better than others. But day in and day out, I have to churn it out.

I hope people enjoy them. Sometimes they inflame people’s anger and I get nasty e-mails. At least I know people are reading…

Again, thanks for your input.

27

Tom,

I would add that it can be painful to find parking around there during the day and the shop is quite small which means you don’t carry a lot of inventory of non-bike related tri gear - some but not a wide enough selection. I like being able to handle all my tri shopping at one time which seems pretty common in the Tri bike shop business these days. When are you moving to bigger digs??

28

I think the key is to be receptive and open to suggestions, and accurate and factual in your responses. For example, a friend of mine was recently in the market for a Cervelo P2K with 650C wheels. She is a 2:50 half-ironman bike split rider and is going to compete in IM Canada next summer. She is a power-oriented rider and hills are not her strongest suit.

I am racing it myself and am going to use a 39x27 top gear on my Cervelo and convinced her to go compact on her bike to get an extra measure of security for the climbs. (My 1/2 IM PR bike leg is 2:14 so we are a good way apart in our paces.) Anyway, she asked several good bike shops in our area, and all of them insisted that a 39x27 with 650c wheels would be fine for her. I tried to tell her that the guys she spoke to didn’t know what they were talking about, but she was overwhelmed and in the end decided to follow their suggestions and stick with the 39x53 crankset. She also ruled out a few stores who did not seem accomodating to her needs.

Overall, she was totally confused and frustrated and made a bad decision. If she wants to spin at 90 RPM up the IMC passes, she will have to average 10 MPH with that gearing! If the stores had really thought about the race requirements, and had been more thorough in the review of her gearing requirements, she would have been happy as a clam, but instead her requests were dismissed and ignored.

Bottom line: Stores should really listen to entry level riders who come in and take their questions seriously.

-Marc

I did some res

29

I’ve heard concerns over parking before. As a result, I served on the Mayor’s Parking Task Force for Dearborn for a year. It was a volunteer position at City Council that researched the parking situation throughout Dearborn and reported directly to the Mayor. After a year of research and a $60,000 study we concluded that, relative to toehr communities with commensurate square footage of retail and commensurate tax base and sales volume there was no parking problem. I agree 100% In front of my store right now are six spaces- in the street- open for parking. It is a “Gentlemen’s agreement” with the local constabulatory (who used to work for me) that they do not enforce the parking restrictions on our street. People can park free, in front of the store, as long as they want. Also, our associates next door at the Amoco station have been largely gracious (with few exceptions) about our customers using their lot. Additionally, the church next door has volunteered 6 spaces exclusively forour use. All this parking is less than 200 feet fromour front door. Compared to Ann Arbor, Royal Oak, etc. Our parking situation is excellent.

As for moving to a bigger building, I don’t see that ever happening. We almost did it last year but Rabe died and I lost interst in it when he was gone.

30

Hey Marc,

This rasies an intersting question and issue. The customer in question inquired about a compact crank configuration. Not a good option for Canada for a number of reasons:

  1. Shift quality can be (but is not always necessarily) compromised.
  2. Karen McKeachie has done IMC and gone up Richter Pass and Yellow Lake in her big ring. I’ve done IMC twice and did the climb on a 39/23 on 650c wheels.
  3. While a compact configuration may “work” or function correctly- the likelyhood is that it will- the attendant risks for mechanical malfunction (i.e. dropped chain shifting to small ring due to proximity of bottom of derailleur cage to reduced diameter small ring) is not worth the risk. Customers invest thousands of dollars and hours of training to do Ironman. When we make recommendations on equipment we have a solemn obligation to be 100% sure we are absolutely certain what we are recommending is correct. If they ignore our advice, it is at their risk- but it is their perogative.

We could not, in good concious, recommend compact cranks with authority. We now what we used works. We know this becasue becasue we have done the race twice on this equipment, and have over 20 other customers who have also done the event and we have had dialogue with them about their experiences.

I think your associate was confused by too many “experts” who talked a convincing line. People love to give advice, but my experience is they scatter from the responsibility when the advice goes bad. We don’t have that luxury. We have to stand by what we recommend, so we only recommend what we know for a fact will work, and we never make recommendations we haven’t actually tried ourselves.

31

Sorry, a couple more thoughts on this issue:

Situations like this place us in a bit of a “moral dilemma”.

On the one hand, we could make an easy sale by simply being condescending and agreeing wtih the customer- as you say, listening to the customer. They told us what they want, an “expert” consulted on it, sell the person what they asked for right?

Wrong. The problem is, we take responsibility for someone else’s recommendations. I’m not willing to do that. When the equipment goes bad- even a little bad- you can bet the customer willl not run back to their “expert” consultant with their problems- they will come back here.

I am in the happy customer business. That doens;t always mean agreeing with a customer who wants equipment that is not optimal.

Often times the best equipment solution is not the latest, most gadgety, convoluted creative solution to the problem- espcially for someone who is not in a postiion to do their own maintenance and will be travelling with their equipment.

The most responsible choice (and recommendation) is the most conservative, proven, readily available, easily service and easily obtained one. Especially when it is proven over and over again.

It is easy for people to make equipment recommendations when their house payment does ride on the results. We take it a lot more seriously. We don’t just do it for fun. We do it for a living.

32

I find it admirable that you are bringing this topic to light and discussion, as I think it is highly applicable when it comes to your shop. I am a customer of your establishment, and have bought all of my more expensive equipment, including my bike, from your place. During the time that I have interacted with you and your shop, I have seen a number of things worthy of this discussion.

The first time I met you, I got no sense of this elitist mentality. I thoroughly appreciated and enjoyed my bike fit and the education I received. You were most friendly and helpful, and I thank you for that.

However, since that time, I have become quite disenchanted with visiting your store. In your writings, I have noticed a level of elitist attitude, that makes the inexperienced, or less talented athlete feel unwelcome. I have also, on almost every subsequent visit, felt as though your employees treated me very poorly. I could find plenty of justification in your accomplishments for you to have pride and maybe even an attitude, but this has somehow spilled over into your employees mentality.

From my perspective, as well as a number of friends I have that are customers of BikeSport, I don’t think this is due to technical knowledge or your sales and fit system causing intimidation. I think this is why we came in the first place. Being heavy handed in the bike and equipment selection process should be appreciated, especially by a newbie. To me, it is the subsequent shopping experiences that have caused the alienation.

I wholeheartedly think that Scott’s response is very befitting of my personal experience. His reponse included the following:

“I think elitism, at least in my experience, is perceived when one of several events occur: the shop personnel don’t offer a friendly, heartfelt greeting the customer states an upper price point, and the shop belittles it, directly or indirectly the shop doesn’t take the time to ACTIVELY LISTEN to the customer the shop tells the customer her/his ideas are incorrect without explaining why the shop doesn’t take the time to offer simple technical education free from idiosynchratic/specific language”

This is what I, as an amateur athlete fairly new to the sport, see as the problem. The experience after the original bike purchase is more the culprit. It seems to be a “delayed snob/elitist syndrome.” I have been told, when looking at a mountain bike that “If that is all I am going to spend, I just shouldn’t buy a bike.” I’d love to buy everything from the local shop, which in my case is BikeSport. I’ll pay a little more than I can on the internet or at some huge chain. That extra money is well spent for some personal friendly experienced service, but not once you take that away and replace it with what I have experienced thus far.

It is nice to see you actively responding to the replies you have received. You should implement that practice into responses you receive from your web-site.

33

Tom,

Contrasting my first post in this thread (LBS making unsupported statements) and your response to Marc’s compact crank question, you provide the kind of diologue I am interested in when I visit my LBS. You’re providing a list of comments and you seem to back up each one (or give the indication that you could support each one if required) without “hand waving”, “smoke and mirrors” or belittling the customer. The flip side is that you state you learn from your customer’s race experiences. This openness and exchange is all good. On balance, both the shop and your customers come out ahead.

Rob

34

Sounds like things have improved somewhat. A few months ago there were signs at the garage and church warning parking was for their patrons only.

35

Great googly moogly, I am glad I don’t own a bike shop. If this thread hasn’t given people an appreciation for the challenges a bike retailer faces, nothing will. “Ask me questions. No, stop interrogating me. Tell me what bike I need. No, don’t- do I look stupid to you?” Here’s what I like to have happen when I walk into a store. When I walk in, someone should smile at me and say “Hi.” Then I like to look around for awhile and sort of get my bearings- you know, get a feel for what kind of shop it is, whether it’s a real roadie place, or if they sell mainly cruisers, or what. Plus I like to have a few minutes of peace and quiet to drool over the high-end bikes before getting down to business. After a reasonable amount of time, a it’s nice if someone wanders over to ask me if I need help with anything. When helping, I do like to have things explained to me. ( Why I should want a bike that fits, what the benefits of a steep angle are, etc. ) I do not want to be made to feel like I’m an idiot for doing everything wrong up until now. ( “You’ve been riding tri’s on WHAT? An old seven-speed?! AH HA HA HA HA HA!! Everyone knows you can’t do that!” ) I also don’t want any grief if, after listening to the salesperson explain why aero aluminum tubes are best, I decide to go with round steel, or whatever. What’s so hard about that? :wink:

*2. I have long searched for some easy, quick, simple method of showing people our process and its value without intimidating them. That would be an enormous compelling reason to buy a bike from us- if they only knew the value of the process. Realisitcally, our process is the only thing we have to offer. You can buy a Felt, Cervelo, Litespeed, QR, Softride, Guru or whatever anywhere. It’s our process that sets us apart. How do we make people see the value in that? * ** Explain it to them. When someone says, “I’d like to buy a bike,” take a few minutes and explain what the Bikesport Michigan philosophy is. I think most people appreciate knowing where you’re coming from, and why.

*3. How do we instill in people a knowledge that we are tyrants about qulity control in building bikes? Some people see it, but most don’t. I remember getting a call years ago from a customer who brought his bike home and said, “I noticed you guys chased the threads for the water bottle cages and then greased them before attaching the cage, and that you replaced the square-sided bolts with round button head bolts to make it easier to put the bottle in and out- thank you.” Very few customers ever see those things, let alone see the value in it. People don’t notcie things like every zip tie on a computer installation lined up perfectly and wrapped the same direction. How do we show them that without coming of as snobs or seeming too “Monster Garage”? *

Can’t help you here. Like you said, some people will notice, most won’t. The people who don’t notice don’t care, either. They only care that their bike works, which is fine. The people who do notice, though, are really going to appreciate it.

36

Tom,

I am going to join in with Scott and BigAndSlow and say that the attitude of staff is key. On Saturday I went into the local branch of a chain store ready and able to leave with a bike and related accoutremont. (I literally had a stack of $100’s) Four staffers were clustered around a tv watching a tape of a race. After waiting for a bit, I asked if one of them wanted to sell me a bike. The low man on the totem pole was assigned to me and the others went back to the tv. The experience went down hill from there. No the bike I was interested in was not in stock. No he did not know how to determine how long it would take. No he did not know how to check the computer to see if it was available at a different store. I would be best served if I came back during a slow period to speak with a manager who could order the bike. No he did not know if the fitting was included if I bought the bike. You get the idea.

I have been a consumer long enough to know that this is not good service. At a certain level, the bike biz is like any other and service does count. I am not inclined to spend my money at this store. Nevertheless, it will get my business if they have a shorter time to getting my bike. I realize this is a disincentive to it providing good service, but I want the bike so I will tolerate it. I will not like it and this post is indicative of the review I will give this store even if it gets the bike in. Why? Because I am in fact doing them a favor by purchasing from them. In the meantime, I will be checking another entry on Slowman’s approved list of bike shops in the hope that a one off shop will be a bit more motivated to take my few thousand bucks.

37

Hi BigAndSlow,

I want to thank you for the degree of thoughtfulness and insight, as well as time, that went into your response. Realisitcally, I could not have received bettter response from a consultant hired to observe and analyze our business.

General Electirc’s former CEO Jack Welch wrote a book called “The Sixth Sigma” about process and customer based operations. the thesis is that a company should be built to conform to the customer’s needs, and thet the customer’s preception of the company- or the way they “see” the company, is critically important. I agree with this 100%, and it is a lofty set of standards to try to acheive.

This thread in one small step in that process.

That my employees have somehow imprinted my negative traits as a person upon themselves is no one’s fault but my own. I appreciate you illustrating that point. Now it will be addressed.

When we started the editorial page I was advised that it is a “double edge sword”. That some of the content could alienate people or make them not like us. It is an opinion forum and the only opinion on it is mine, since I write it. Not everyone agrees with me. I was counseled that may cause people to take their business elsewhere.

Ultimately, I hope that has not been the case. My hope was that people would be able to seperate the potential entertainment value on the editorial page from the business itself. In retrospect, perhaps that was an unreasonable expectation.

Again, I do sincerely thank you for your insights.

38

Big – no – huge colossal disagreement from me regarding Bigandslow’s issue-taking with your editorials. I have frequently been stunned by the outstanding prose that you have shared with us on all subjects. “That Guy” comes instantly to mind as well as the fictional account of the soldier in Iraq. Your dissociation from the bike club rides due to the numbskulls not wearing helmets, on and on. There is not much else I read that stays with me months after I have read it. Tom D, your editorials are a gift to us pure and simple.

I don’t live in MI anymore but if I did BikeSport would be my only bike-buying destination, largely because of your intelligent posts here and, in my opinion, attitude-free editorials. Please do not change a thing.

Best of luck to you in NZ, and congrats on your strong race in Curacao, topless spectators and all. Wow the mind boggles…

39

Hey Skeets, Thanks for your kind words about the editorials. A lot of work does go into them. I’m pleased to hear you enjoy them.

The numbers indicate people like them, so good, bad or indifferent, they are staying.

40

Tom,

Personally, I’d say that you must adhere to your professional ethics, for a sense of moral responsibility and due to potential legal ramifications. If I, the customer, come in with a kooky idea that could get me hurt, you have absolutely NO requirement to provide that service. If, however, I have a kooky idea (incidentally…I’m known for kooky ideas, albethem nowhere near the sheer nuttiness of Good King Bunnyman) that will negatively impact my performance, efficiency or fun factor, then you–the subject matter expert upon whom I am leaning not just for commerce but also advice–are morally bound to share your misgivings with me. The thing that takes it a step above/up another notch, however, is when you make me understand why my idea is kooky and offer alternatives.

…Give a man a fish versus teaching him to long-line, and other such nonsensical parrables…

The elitism factor comes into play in two ways. First is the delivery of your (rhetorical “your”) response to my zany idea. If you roll your eyes and tell me I’m off my rocker, I’m probably going to think you’re jealous of my innate criminal genius. That’s human nature. If, however, you thoughfully and gently say “Scott, that’s interesting and I’d love to hear what you intend to do with that Nexus rear hub mated to that Zipp 404 rim run on your racing unicycle BUT, I think you might find some other, safer alternatives. Perhaps I can help and together we can come up with a way-cooler idea that will be the shiznickity…,” then I am more likely to think that your interests are compatible with mine.

Second, if I give you that upper price limit, it has to be respected. If it cannot be met (“Mr. Demerly, hi, I’d like a sub-17 pound fully aero tri bike and I won’t spend a dime over $500.”), please explain to me why not in terms of the frame and components rather than your mark-up, profit margins and/or capital overhead. More importantly, offer me alternatives and, again, make me understand the opportunity cost(s) of my choice(s).

I’ve seen these two functions performed both poorly and well at LBSs in San Diego and New Orleans. …And as a consumer, I make my choices based upon the way that a retailer makes me feel with regards to their respect for my ideas and, more importantly, their respect for my success.

I think that you, the retailer, know who’s serious and who’s not. Please correct me if I’m wrong. What I think might be tricky, though, is the shy, unsure consumer who might not know enough to ask the right questions. That’s where the issue of retailer attitude comes into play. Teach the newbie what bikes and fit are about, and you’ve just given birth to another happy, fulfilled triathlete…

Cheers,

Scott

41

I like the idea of a questionnaire. Along those lines you could also put together a 1-2 page flyer to give out as a guide to bike purchasing: “Bike Purchase for Dummies” so to speak… And then you could even put together an illustrated folder about the bike purchasing process with photos and short captions showing the main steps and ideas and critical decision making points of the process. The customer could take her/his own sweet time to browse through that and you can pick up the conversation from there with additional comments and answers to questions. The customer also has an idea of what to expect.

The major skill in any salesperson of technically involved toys would be to state in plain English the functions and the reasons for a gadget. Terminology that matches the level of informedness of the customer means you are showing respect, I feel.