Who thinks custom frames, in terms of geometry, are better than stock frames and why? What did a custom frame accomplish that a stock frame couldnt for you?
what can it accomplish?
it accomplishes being what you want, instead of what somebody else thought most people might want.
most people dont know or understand the ramifications of “what they want” Why cant a stock bike fulfill “what they want” Does a custom frame really offer so much more that it cant satisfy “what they want?”
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i wasn’t talking about most people. i DO know what i want, what i like, what i don’t, and why. since there are so many fabulous custom builders out there, why compromise, if you (i) do not have to?
I view custom as an absolute last resort, very rarely needed, and a substantial compromise.
Here’s why:
On a custom geometry frame- that is, a unique set of frame dimensions and angles seperate from a tested and established production frame- the customer is the first and only test pilot. Maybe it will interface with the ground well, maybe not.
Sure, the dimensions may match the rider’s anatomy 100% perfectly, but how does the dimensions, angles of the frame, weight distribution, etc. interact with gound in the real world through the entire range of the performance envelope? Realistically, no one knows until after the check is cashed and rubber meets the road.
In the top professional ranks of cycling there are some racers who use custom geometry frames. Often times it takes a number of frames before an optimal mix of fit and handling are acheived. Cipollini, Merckx, Hinault, LeMond and many other riders come to mind among those who would receive custom geometry frames, use them briefly, then reject them for a slightly different version, often with comments like “The top tup need to be 5mm shorter/longer, the hweel base needs to be…” Most consumers don’t have the resources to order a spread of frames with minutely different dimensions and then are willing to test them to pick the best handling manifestation.
Some people feel/perceive that custom geometry represents the pinnacle of bike fitting. That is their prerogative. My opinion is that it is a source of inconsistent and unpredictable results with an opportunity for expensive mistakes.
I have sold famous name brands of custom frames. We had a lot of problems, a lot of returns. It was a net loss financially. As a business owner I didn;t see it as either necessary or viable.
There are many frame builders, such as Ernesto Colnago, who are adverse to the idea of custom geometry and use it only as a last resort, such as the unusual bikes build for Edwig Van Hoodunck, a short torso, long leg fit. I agree with them.
A bike fitter is different than a frame designer. As a fitter, I am not qualified to say “make a frame like this…” It may fit optimally, but it may not ride optimally.
I’m not a fan of custom geometry, but there are those who make a compelling case for it.
Thats just it- compromise- Dont you think that these fabulous framebuilders already have made a faboulus product. Why mess with it? By saying that someone may know what they want, arent they messing with what the frame designer already thinks is best? Im only talking abut geometry. Not frame materials. Most frame builders I know of will have the shop sign off on a design saying that they are not reposible for any negative effects of a custom frame design
Fit comes first. If you cannot get a proper fit then go custom by all means. Of course, you have to rely on the bike shop to sell you a bike that properly fits. At 6’2" with a slightly longer torso I had shops sell me a colnago and latter a bianchi that always had to be maxed out, i.e. with stem length and saddle positions. Even then, they were compromised fits, but I was told there were no other options. Obviously, their interest was selling me the bike they had in the store. No one ever advised me I could get a bike built to my dimensions.
Later, I learned about companies like Serotta and Seven and then had a proper fitting. I knew I was going somewhere when I went through a half hour of flexibility testing and questions about what type of riding I wanted my frame for. Turns out, the bike that was designed for me took into account my weight, my flexibility, and the type of ride characteristics I was looking for.
The difference between my custom built ride and my old colnago and bianchi are night and day. Yeah, custom costs a little more, up front, but I think most folks that have gone the custom route end up with a bike they can ride and enjoy for years without need to get the next latest and greatest thing.
Again, it all depends on fit and what you want to get out of the ride. Most folks probably do fit ok on a stock frame but those of us on the upper or lower ranges or who have flexibility or other anatomical issues custom is the only way to go.
da55. asking a custom builder to meet a specific request, or preference, or objective is not “messing with it”. in fact, in the right hands any standard geometry will lend it self quite well to these changes ( along with any additional subsequently needed changes), since any standard geometry is itself nothing more than a series of such parameters to begin with.
moreover, you appear to be engaged in somewhat of a straw man argument, with regard to your fixation on geometry, if you do not mind my saying so. which is to say - you cannot simply separate 'geometry" out of the custom paradigm. before you have a bike, you NEED to add in a host of other qualities ( material, construction, fit and finish, features, weight, stiffness/softness, etc etc). so then, within your straw man argument you are quite correct - however that argument is limited to a set of variables which actually does not exist in the real world.
i am not sure what you mean by builders requiring shops to “sign off”. i have bought numerous custom bikes, all of them direct from the builder. in each case, the builder and myself worked together to meet the design goals - with tremendous success. and, to that end i guess perhaps they were, as tom d sez, each an experiment of one - but uhhhhhhhhhh . . . . . . that was the idea.
anyway, i am left wondering if you actually understand custom bikes at all. there is nothing quite like the feeling of getting on a bike which acts exactly as you like, rides exactly as you like, looks just like you like, has the features you require - with none of the ones you don’t, and on and on. does anybody NEED any of that? of course not. is it fun, and enjoyable, and a fine part of the cycling experience if you are in a spot to know the difference? yes indeed it is.
I really like and agree with what Tom D wrote. He’s a smart guy.
I think custom is more marketing gimic than anything … ie Seven Cycles, comes to mind. Good bikes – but no better than good – with great marketing.
Richard Sachs, a very well regarded frame builder, speaks of ‘bespoke’ frames, rather than custom frames. Sachs doesn;t build custom bikes so much as Sachs bikes using Sachs philosophies built to fit the rider and their needs. At first blush, the difference between custom and bespoke may seem inconsequential, but when considered carefully, the chasm between the two is vast. R Sachs … he’s a very smart guy and an amazing artisan.
Me, stock bikes work fine for me, my long torso, and stubby little short legs.
I agree with Tom also. If you can’t find a bike that fits you among the thousands of choices, and including all the ways you can fit a bike to you (stem, saddle, seat post, etc, etc, ), then a custom frame is one way to go. However, I think it’s mostly an ego thing, like having a special edition car or SUV. I’m sure that for some people it’s a psychological help, but I doubt that customization offers an real benefit for the average rider over a stock bike. You just might have to work a little to get the fit you want.
Personally, I’d be pissed if I got dialed in and had a custom frame built up, and then 3 months later, with different fitness or musculature, the fit didn’t fit so well anymore.
guys. it is not really fit ( that is a given), or marketing, or ego. what odd ideas ! here are a few recent custom bikes i know of, either mine of friends:
a stiff 29er made of lugged steel for the aesthetic, with an EBB and disc tabs so it can be made into an SS.
a traditional " stage geometry " road frame but with aggressively sloping tt and radiussed stays for a preferred rakish look.
a wicked light alu 'crosser with track fork ends and disc tabs.
a 26 in wheeled commuter with cross country touring fixtures built to art-like levels of fit and finish.
so. bikes made for specific ideas, for a specific rider, which no manufacturer currently is making otherwise.
and, as for the “thousands of bikes that could fit” . . . what if you find this bike, but you would like clearance for fenders? or you want ti, but it made of alu? or you wish a stiff ride, but it is made of flexy CF ? etc etc?
it is not about “better”, or need. it is simply about liking certain stuff, and being in a spot to know how to get it instead of taking something close from off the rack. what is so hard to grasp about this, i wonder?
I am not a guru on this manner and will allow the truely knowledgable of this website speak the high tech mumbo jumbo. However, I am someone that rides a custom geometry frame. My experience has been that I can ride almost any off the self frame at 5’ 11" 180lbs. However, every frame is a compromise for me. A little short here, a little long there, etc… My custom frame rides like a gem and fits like a glove. I am a believer at this point, but you have to pay to play. Custom bikes are expensive.
I don’t doubt that there are valid reasons for buying custom, including “just because I want it.” I’m just saying that it’s probably unnecessary for the vast majority of riders. Most people aren’t looking to add fenders or a mix of a cyclocross and track bikes. Most people can find what they want, in a fit they need, in the material they want.
“That certainly would not characterize 90% of the bike-buying public.”
Well I never said that they would find what they need, just that they could if they wanted.
Also, I never said buying custom was the wrong thing to do, just that it is unnecessary for the vast majority of people to buy custom to get a proper fit. If you have a need to be the only one with your particular bike color or frame geometry or whatever, then by all means, go custom. If you have the money and just want to go custom, then go ahead. I just don’t think it gives the average rider enough benefit to be worth the extra few dollars.
"Will that stock frame be perfect? Will it have EVERY SINGLE part I want? Will the builder stand behind it? Will the color be EXACTLY what I want? Will I be able to return it to the builder for repainting? Will I ride it with PRIDE? Will anyone else have one just like it? Do I know ANYTHING about it’s heritage, or who made it? "
The stock frame might not be perfect, but I’d wager the vast majority of riders don’t know what perfect is, and couldn’t tell the difference if you put perfect in front of them. If it doesn’t have the part you want, buy the part and install it. If the builder doesn’t stand buy the frame, you should pick a different company. I understand you won’t get the same level of one on one service with a brand as with a custom, but you should still feel confident with the frame and the service if something goes wrong. I don’t know if you’ll get the exact shade you want, but that can be changed , or you could get over the pickiness and buy a black, yellow, red, or silver bike like thousands of other people do. Many bike companies offer custom paint jobs for their stock frames. If you can’t ride a stock bike with pride, then that’s your problem (not you specifically, just someone). There’s nothing wrong with buying a bike that someone else might also have. Many people purposely buy a bike because they’ve seen someone else on something similar.
I suppose I needed to be cleaerer on what my definition of "custom " is TTN listed bikes that clearly are custom but in a different way than what I was thinking. My question is this, why would someone need a custom geometry road or tri bike if they fit a stock geometry road or tri bike? TTN, I understand your global approach to “custom” but I am talikng purely about geometry. Materials, finish, components are secondary to geometry. Is it marketing? Im also addressing this question to the average guy. If a bike is built custom for you heavily based on your flexibility, level of fitness, and any other dynamic variables, whose to say that that frame geometry will still be “custom” as you physically change as a rider?
And for those guys who do have a custom bike, can you tell me what were the specific reasons for your chosing custom? Im in the market for a new bike and need your help in deciding if I need custom or not.
The problem with a custom frame IS that your requirements could change, thusly making the rider need adjustments. This is why I say to never get a bike with a rider weight limit, you never no what could happen to make the bike not right anymore.
Unless you have out-of-normal sizing issues, the custom bike is probably not for you, unless there is a material/construction method/paintjob you have a lust for. A lugged steel bike is nearly available only by a custom manufacturer, and good lugs are getting harder to come by, as well as the tubing to make a nice, lugged steel bike. I will say that if all steel lug production were to cease, there would still be quite a few builders who will have enough lugs for their lifetime, if not part of their childrens’ careers.
Joe Average age grouper could end up with a bike underbuilt if he has a particular winter where he is recovering from bad injury, with needing a different headtube or top tube measurement until he recovers, and sometimes, that could be a case where Joe Average age grouper would NEVER be able to ride the bike again.
If custom IS your undying wish, then get a bike made for sport riding, unless you are a guy who can be consistently be at top of the pack finishes. This could end up being a bike with stock geometry, unless you are hard-to-fit. It has been mentioned before, but pro riders will generally have a few customs built per year, especially if they switch sponsoring manufacturers. And let’s face it- the better bike brands that cost more will have more sizes, which would then fit probably nine out of ten consumers with quite a bit of overlap.
My experience with a custom is this: long wait, a bike not suited to my style or weight, and a bike that was sold the following season. That being said, I probably had just used the wrong manufacturer, judging by the number of older Mandarics, Yamaguchis, and Landsharks I see running around here on a regular basis. I am not soured by customs, as I will probably get a custom frame as my next one.
When I was fitted for a bike it was revealed I needed a 59 cm seat tube and 57 cm top tube. I did not want to go custom as a few guys had had troubles with frame failures locally and I did not like the paintwork. I wanted a P3 or Blade but they did not fit, after searching the geometry charts I found the QR Tiphoon fit so I got that. If you are flexible in the brands one will fit.
custom? what do you mean by custom? if you mean the buyer decides everything in the stupid english tradition…(this curly cue lug, this top tube this tube for the right seat stay this head angle etc.) custom is really dumb. if you mean custom as in a frame designed by some idiot “bike fitter” with an inability to define trail who has never raced a bike in anger in his life and who thinks “coni manual” is the name of the skrawny colombian kid who panaria just signed, it is not only dumb but awful and appalling to evrything that is good and right about bike design…alot of the best bike designers in the world work for firms that allow morons (read: bike shop employees) to do most of the design work on their multi-thousand dollar “made to measure” frames. this sucks…so then the jerk must think custom frames are awful?
no. the jerk loves custom frames…a made to measure frame designed around a rider or a rider and a specific course is about the most sublime thing the jerk has ever experienced. a bicycle designed by a true master to balance perfectly under one’s size, weight and riding style will force one to never again by an off the shelf bicycle. heres the thing though. you’ve got to get a custom from a guy who gets it. ernesto colnago gets it. dario pegoretti gets it. richard sachs gets it and whomever designed the stock 56 trek madone sl gets it…'cause the most finicky rider in the world loves it.
gerard gets it and could design any athlete a custom frame which would probably be infintesimly better than what he currently gives the csc boys…but why? a great bike designer builds great riding bikes regardless of whether they are “custom” or not. there are very small variations in frame size and geometry that still allow a bike to handle and ride properly…customs are not for “freaks”. “freaks” can’t ride race bikes. front centers can only be in a small range…angles really can change more than a degree or two on road bikes…racing biycle geometry was just about perfected by 1972…
time trial/tri bikes are even more finicky…some of the best tt bikes in the world only come in two or three geometries…they handle properly…yet take the example of the walser, it is porbably one of the most cutom bikes in the world although it only comes in one size with a choice of two top tube lengths…yet herr walser lays up the carbon based on the riders weight, power out put and even their experiences on the bikes he’s previously built…so sorry for the rant, but custom rules.
jerk
(proud owner of many custom bikes…including a custom c50 which supposidly doesn’t exist.)
Da5511: Why custom? For me, I just couldn’t get a proper fit on a bike. At the time I was fitted on my Colnago I was supposedly fit for the bike by the best bike fitter in LA. I think that most bike shops are really only interested in moving their stock (after all, they are in the business of selling bikes) and trying to get you the buyer to fit on whatever size they have available. I have experienced this myself. I have seen people get squeezed or stretched onto bikes that they should not be on.
I have now had a custom road and tri frame built for me. I am not the most flexible person in the world. They were able to take that into account. I wanted a certain riding position for my road bike that was more akin to the type of longer distance riding I do as opposed to a more aggressive rider position. They were able to give me what I wanted. I didn’t want a super aggresive tri position and one that I could still climb with, the builder was able to give me that.
Someone above said a custom size frame locks you into one position. In fact, its just the opposite. With a custom sized bike you generally get a bike that allows you a baseline fit from which you can easily adjust your position up or down, etc. On all of the stock frames I have, I am at the maxed out position from day one where there is no where left to go. In other words, it is the stock size that has more limited fitting potentials.
Oh, and there was no extra charge for getting my road and tri frames custom built for me.
I was also able to get the exact color, ride characteristics and other options that I wanted. No compromises and as I said above, at no extra charge to their stock frame. I got my bikes in about 4-5 weeks so the wait wasn’t bad at all. And if there is any problem, the builder is right here in the USA and will answer to you directly, if necessary. I doubt you get that same response from a mass european or american frame manufacturer. I had a problem with my Colnago after a crash and I was basically told I was SOL. The custom builder will be able to fix it just right.
As long as there isn’t a huge price difference, you might as well get exactly what you want and what works best for you.