I’m obviously an idiot, but I still can’t understand how you get from doing better in a 5k to going with a crossfit endurance coach. Isn’t crossfit and endurance sort of contradiction in terms?
I’m not dismissing that it won’t work, but I have to ask what you’ve tried for run-specific training for that distance? I improved a lot just reading and then using the advice in “Run Faster” by Hudson. Just training aimed towards the 5k specifically. I understand that strength and HIT is good for short distance running, but I’d still believe adapting the specific training for the specific task is more efficient and effective.
Sorry I didn’t answer your actual question. Like I said, I’m a bit of an idiot…
That’s a good question. The answer is that the more I run, the more I tend to break down and then I can’t run. At this stage I can only run 2-3 days a week at most, and have to limit the length of the runs to 4-5 miles at a time. That kind of training is not going to lead to any improvement in a 5k.
Read your own post. If you are breaking down while running only 2-3 times per week and 4-5 miles, your plan is obviously flawed. I would surmise you are training at levels beyond your current ability. Try BarryP’s advice as MANY on this forum have with exceptional success. Running less and working on explosive efforts will make you better at THEM, not running.
Makes.a huge difference if it’s bad arthritis for which more volume and intensities.make.it worse, vs subjective fatigue for which it may help to train more and better
Hi Runner66, make sure you find a CrossFit coach and affiliate that is with CF HQ. Some gyms open up, use the term functional fitness and are not following good coaching practice, a great gym will make you take a 30 day fundamental class before you even touch a weight. If you want more motivation or answers to know if CF will work read this article on a nice lady named Sian Welch you may have heard of her ;-). https://journal.crossfit.com/...ears-after-the-crawl . Sian used a local gym to race Kona last year and I assure you she knows a thing or two about the sport of triathlon. Give it a try.
No major injuries. It’s more an issue of soreness, achiness and lack of flexibility I guess. If I try to run 3 or 4 consecutive days, my legs hurt and I have to take a few days off. I then start running like an old man, shuffling and not having any spring to my stride. I had x-rays of both knees and I have mild to moderate arthritis, so nothing major that should keep me from running.
If I could build back up to running 25-30 mpw, I would.the more I run, the more I tend to break down and then I can’t run. At this stage I can only run 2-3 days a week at most, and have to limit the length of the runs to 4-5 miles at a time. That kind of training is not going to lead to any improvement in a 5k.
Yeah, those are surely issues.
I have to wonder if the increased strength gained from your proposed training will translate without causing the same problems though.
I’d look into just how fast you’re running and if your training is optimal. That’s why I suggested the book I did. I’ve met some people that are great at for example swimming, yet when they run they’re not doing well, and their problems are with training despite training really well when swimming. So I still recommend looking at great training programs and making sure you’re not missing something. This all assumes you haven’t already of course.
Also, as for specific “strength” training that is lower impact and shorter distance I highly recommend hill runs; either medium ones at around tempo pace, or shorter ones that are essentially strides for about 10-15 seconds. They build strength as well as form.
Lastly, I’ve been in a similar place as you at only a slightly younger age, and I found supplementing with protein helped my recovery. I know that’s a controversial topic, but to me it’s a matter of age and diet (the former going ‘up’ and the latter just not being great). Something to look into perhaps.
Either way, best of luck… wish I could help but I don’t know crossfit much so…
I will be starting training with a crossfit endurance coach to try something different in the offseason. I am 51, with rapidly declining run speed and performance due to being unable to run consistent weekly mileage. My goal is to try and improve my 5k time, which has plummeted in the last few years.
…I am just looking for any success stories from older runners who have tried this approach for run training. I am hopeful that an increase in strength and power will allow me to improve my running and help alleviate minor injuries which keep me from running on a consistent basis.
I’m not “older” as you’re asking, and I am not a “success story”, but I did race sprints on a CFE plan working with one of the founding coaches here in San Diego. I was 37 at the time. This was after two years of using CF in the offseasons (without injury) to improve my strength. I had fun with the training, no doubt. The social aspect of CrossFit alone is fun. I had a blog a while ago where I was discussing progress and setbacks using CFE. TL;DR for it: CFE led to **more **injuries, and in particular to major muscle groups - hamstrings, lats, and lower back. Most of these were due to over-exertion on a consistent basis - my body did not have the time it needed to recover from the programmed intensity. And this is the drawback with CFE: while the theory behind it might work, in practice it is simply too much demand on our bodies, particularly for those of us who are older. Younger athletes might be able to recover day-to-day during that regimen, but for those of us “masters”, I think CFE programming is just wildly inappropriate.
Now, I caveat that by saying that it didn’t work for me - my times and splits were consistently slower and I was injured several times during that season. I did not see improvements in any of my times, in fact most of them got worse from the prior season (18:00 5K tri splits became 19:00+ - the next season under traditional training with intensity, my times returned to normal quickly). My times and places and splits are already very competitive. It’s possible that slower athletes or those who have never done any kind of endurance volume can see gains from a CFE regimen, but if you’re already somewhat competitive, it’s not going to speed up your 5K. If your 5K is, say, 26:00 or more, the intensity demanded by CFE will probably make you faster, but at serious risk of injury derailing your progress.
I’d recommend more intelligently-applied intensity and rest for your plan, rather than just a bunch of miles run at the same pace, but I would steer well clear of CFE. It’s going to do more harm than good for you, IMO.
It wasn’t even the lifting that caused the injuries. It was the intense “endurance” training coming off of the heavy/high-volume lifting days that caused the injuries. In other words, doing intense run intervals the day after an intense Crossfit session led to a pulled hamstring. Hopefully your coach knows what he/she is doing, but I’d caution you that I was working with one of the founding coaches of CFE. Maybe it’s gotten better, but my personal opinion is that the protocol is inappropriate for all but “couch-to-XX” athletes, and likely wildly inappropriate for people “our age”. I wish you success and the best of luck!
When I started doing CF in late 2010 (in my mid-30’s) I went from never having run faster than an 8:00 mile in a race to a sub-19 5k pretty quickly. The gym I belonged to at the time incorporated a lot of running and rowing into their programming which definitely helped. I can probably think of 6-8 guys from that gym who could clean 200+, squat 300+, deadlift 400+ and run a sub-20 5k because the programming was pretty balanced, but programming can vary dramatically from one gym to another and there are plenty of CF gyms that loathe running. I was also coming from a background with no significant aerobic base so I had a lot of room to improve and saw quick gains. YMMV.
The problem for me was that it didn’t translate to distances much beyond 5k. My 10k and HM times were never commensurate with my 5k ability because I wasn’t running any real volume, just a steady diet of 200/400/800 meter intervals, and I was too beat up from doing CF 4-5 times a week to increase the volume. Since I quit CF a few years ago to focus on endurance sports, my 5k has improved by about 30 seconds but my 10k and HM have both improved significantly. Since your goal is specifically to improve your 5k time you might have some success, but it may come at the expense of longer-distance performance. I do think the strength component made me more durable and would like to do more of it now, but it’s tough to find the time to fit it all in.
Also worth noting that Crossfit Endurance doesn’t actually exist anymore. I think they gave up on that concept a few years ago when Brian McKenzie started his own venture.
Thanks for your input and advice. I have already signed up and paid for three months of coaching, so I will give it a shot and see what happens. But I will be very careful with the weight lifting and hope to avoid injury but build some strength.
I have a PR of sub 17:00 for 5k, but that was ten years ago and coming off of 50-60 mpw for many months. Then I got injured and have never been the same since. Now I am lucky if I can break 21:00 for 5k.
I suspect expectations for age and weight are a big part of your considerations. Low 21s for a 50+ yr old is actually pretty decent - you’d be in contention for winning or podiuming your AG in a small local 5k. Maybe you are expecting too much for your age and +10 weight gain? If you’re also training with the expectations and speed component of a low 20s 5k when you’re not in that kind of shape, might explain why you feel so run down after running 3 days in a row.
You’ve tried the lower-intensity, lower-volume per day BarryP or similar approach, right? Seems like that would be a good place to get your base going so you could run more consecutive days and build from there rather than do 3 in a row then crash out for 2 days.
You just need to lift weights 2x per week (maybe 3 is you are inclined). You do not need to do Crossfit, Ninjafit, or whatever the latest fad is called. Lift weights and incorporate mobility and flexibility training along with lots of core work. Dumbell exercises, pull-ups, dips, leg lifts, lunges, etc. Roll out every day for five minutes. Also, run and run slow if you are a poor runner. Build your running base. Run more, but run smarter.
I am going to report back after three months with an update. I have a 5k in December, so I have 2.5 months to train and see what I can do. Of course I have weight to lose also, so if I am able to drop 10 lbs, that alone would result in a big improvement without any change in training.
I’m looking into my Crystal Ball and this is what I see in 2.5 months… …Because you’re changing your stimulus and dropping weight, you’ll be a bit faster. But, you won’t be near as fast as you’d hope you’d be. And you’ll never know if the gains were “strength” related or as a result of shedding the weight.
You won’t get “fast” until you develop some running “durability”. That doesn’t happen with increase strength. It happens with an increase in frequency and consistency. It happens over a long period of time.
You gave us a clue as to your preferred method of training…" In the past I have responded very well to a high intensity, lower mileage approach to training." That type of training doesn’t lend itself you making you “durable”. It leads to the outcome you’re experiencing now…injury and frustration.
You’re going to need to change your mindset with respect to run training. That’s way harder that doing the WOD.
To shed weight and build strength what made you choose crossfit? Couldn’t you accomplish the same thing by working on strength training in a gym with an endurance sports specialist strength coach? (we do exist)
CrossFit and Endurance don’t really mix/mesh together. They are actually conundrums because they are very different energy systems (or they should be if one programs correctly). The whole premise of crossfit or power lifting is to build short power (amount of force over a given amount of time), to add an endurance element to this style of lifting is just dangerously absurd.
Because you have mentioned injuries from running which suggest you have imbalanced and overused muscles, adding weight and overloading those muscles in a crossfit setting will only cause more injuries. My suggestion is to seek out a strength coach (National Strength and Conditioning Association NSCA certified is highly suggested) who specializes with endurance athletes.
Good Luck? I’m not a fan of crossfit and I really don’t like what they’re doing…but to each their own. I would like to know what your strength training background is and have you done much before this? Joe Friel talks about specific strength training in the Triathlete Training Bible, I’m sure he’s got a huge emphasis in his Fast After Fifty book as well.
For running specifically we’re talking: Deadlift, Squat, Clean+Jerk, Dynamic Weighted Step Ups. Of course there’s a bunch of other things out there, but those are really all you need to build around your running for support in my mind.
I followed CFE programming for about a year in my mid-30s, after taking a six-month break from running . I enjoyed the training and greatly improved my overall athletic fitness, but I don’t think it was anywhere close to ideal for pure endurance performance. Ironically, the break from years of running helped rekindle my passion for endurance sports and ultimately led me to start riding and then racing triathlons and various types of bike races – I think part of the attraction for me was mixing up the movement patterns rather than running every day. Now I train much closer to endurance training orthodoxy, but I still think I benefit from having spent a block of time focused on strength/mobility/etc. Give it a try, take it easy, and let us know how it goes.
The whole premise of crossfit or power lifting is to build short power
That’s not true. The premise of CrossFit is to develop broad fitness across broad time and “modal” (their term) domains.
Case in point, check out the workouts for the 2018 CrossFit Games. The criterium and 26.2 mile row got the most attention on this site, but there are others with pretty long swims and runs.
Even the classic power workouts, like clean and jerk are structured to take 15-20 minutes or more with tons and tons of rep. That’s very different than classic power lifting.
I’m not arguing that CrossFit is a solution for the OP. Just the narrow argument that CrossFit is only about explosive power.
I forgot to mention a part of my training. I spent most of last Winter training hard on the bike, 3x per week with hard intervals, swimming twice a week, and running occasionally. I ran a 20:40 5k in early June based off of that kind of tri training. Then I stopped the bike and swim, increased my run mileage to 20-25 mpw, mostly slow running with occasional strides or hill repeats, and then ran a 21:15 5k in late August. I regressed after running more rather than improved.
okay a 35 second (2.4%) difference can be dependent on SOOOO many things. Course length being the first thing that comes to mind, then elevation profile, then weather, then race day body weight, then what you had for dinner, then the shoes you’re wearing, then the shoes the guy in front of you was wearing.
more importantly I think you need to look at what your total training volume was for the first race versus the second race. running 20-25 miles is only 3-4hours a week, even at a silly slow 10min/mile pace. you may have been running more for the second race (and 3 months isn’t really that much time to make fitness gains), but it sounds like your total training volume was lower.
the reality is, if you want to be a runner, you need to train like a runner. 3 days a week is for hobby joggers, athleasure wearing Instagram models, and triathletes who walk to the finish. run 6 days a week, 3 miles each day, then start adding 5 minutes to 2-3 runs every other week. thats not set in stone, but just a general idea. you can still do crossfit stuff while you do this. and if they make you run in crossfit, even better! oh and have at least 2 pairs of running shoes, preferably 3-4 pairs, and not the same shoe.
I forgot to mention a part of my training. I spent most of last Winter training hard on the bike, 3x per week with hard intervals, swimming twice a week, and running occasionally. I ran a 20:40 5k in early June based off of that kind of tri training. Then I stopped the bike and swim, increased my run mileage to 20-25 mpw, mostly slow running with occasional strides or hill repeats, and then ran a 21:15 5k in late August. I regressed after running more rather than improved.
okay a 35 second (2.4%) difference can be dependent on SOOOO many things. Course length being the first thing that comes to mind, then elevation profile, then weather, then race day body weight, then what you had for dinner, then the shoes you’re wearing, then the shoes the guy in front of you was wearing.
more importantly I think you need to look at what your total training volume was for the first race versus the second race. running 20-25 miles is only 3-4hours a week, even at a silly slow 10min/mile pace. you may have been running more for the second race (and 3 months isn’t really that much time to make fitness gains), but it sounds like your total training volume was lower.
the reality is, if you want to be a runner, you need to train like a runner. 3 days a week is for hobby joggers, athleasure wearing Instagram models, and triathletes who walk to the finish. run 6 days a week, 3 miles each day, then start adding 5 minutes to 2-3 runs every other week. thats not set in stone, but just a general idea. you can still do crossfit stuff while you do this. and if they make you run in crossfit, even better! oh and have at least 2 pairs of running shoes, preferably 3-4 pairs, and not the same shoe.
Yea there is something missing here… his low mileage might be all anaerobic thrashing his system. Or if they are slow aerobic miles, it’s not enough
First clean and jerk lifts should not be executed for a duration of 15-20 minutes. It’s unsafe. Nor should they be done in a circuit that last 15-20 minutes in duration.
The goal of crossfit programming is not to develop power but the lifts generally used (i.e. clean and jerk/snatch/clean) are power movements used to increase power or short explosive movements in powerful sports. These lifts don’t develop an endurance muscle because they are now used in an aerobic programming. It’s like planting potatoes and expecting to harvest carrots, doesn’t work.
Below is what the National Strength and Conditioning Association & American College of Sports Medicine recommend for the following goals. Without the given rest in between the specific type of training there will be no gains specific to the lifting done. So even in CFE, if one is lifting powerfully with explosive movements for 12-15 minutes they do not elicit an endurance response in the muscles nor will the athlete gain strength and they will not elicit an increase in power. The attempts are all futile.
**Power: **2-5 reps as fast as possible for 3-6 sets. 5 minutes rest.
**Strength: **5-8 reps for 2-4 sets. The speed of the movement isn’t as important. 2-3 minutes rest.
**Endurance: **12-28 reps done slowly for 1-3 sets. 1-2 minutes rest.
First clean and jerk lifts should not be executed for a duration of 15-20 minutes. It’s unsafe.
I don’t know. I’ve been doing CrosssFit for about a year now, and I’ve yet to see anyone injured (though I’ve seen a couple who got injured when I wasn’t around). Compared to my time in HS and collegiate track/cross-country where on any given day about 25% of the team was dealing with some form of injury.
Runners have no business pontificating to any other sport about injury risk. We are the absolute masters of injuring ourselves in a wide variety of ways.
Without the given rest in between the specific type of training there will be no gains specific to the lifting done.
Bah, nonsense. You stress the body, you get gains. There’s no rocket science. There are no “magic intervals.” Just like there are no magic intervals for running or cycling.
I do like that CrossFit gives the middle finger to training pseudoscience and grim repetition, and focuses more on fun, variety, and daily competition. Not to say that there isn’t a lot of pseudoscience and general shit-showness peddled out under the guise of “CrossFit.” But done well, by genuinely highly qualified coaches (mine are former elite power lifters), I think it’s great.