CrossFit aims to "take down" Gatorade/GSSI/ACSM

Triathlon Forum
1

Apparently someone just turned Greg Glassman (of CrossFit fame) on to Tim Noakes’ research regarding hyponatremia in endurance athletes. (It probably helps that a Noakes now touts paleo as fervently as Glassman has for over a decade.). It appears as though he believes ACSM and the Gatorade Sports Science Institute are criminally negligent in multiple deaths and that he has the power to make them pay.

From crossfit.com:

For years I’ve been challenging the exercise science community to name a single contribution coming from academia that has changed the way any athlete or coach trained for a sport.

In 2003, on this message-board, I repeated the challenge.
http://board.crossfit.com/showthread...5322#post15322

It turns out I’d not been paying enough attention to academic sports sciences to catch a major development.

Throughout the 1990’s the American College of Sports Medicine, the Gatorade Sports Science Institute, and Gatorade published peer reviewed literature that recommended that athletes drink as much as 40 ounces of water, or better yet a sports drink, for each hour they exercised, or “consume the maximum amount that can be tolerated”.

The American College of Sports Medicine and their “Platinum Sponsor,” their only platinum sponsor, Gatorade, systematically debased thermoregulatory science, and subsequently hydration science, in order to promote Gatorade. The consequences of this were the deaths of at least a dozen people, and serious injury to thousands others. I believe that the Gatorade/ACSM cabal also has the distinction of having adversely affected sporting performance on a level the world has never seen before, and profit is and remains the singular motive.

The mechanism by which these deaths and injuries occur is “exercise associated hyponatremia” and “exercise associated hyponatremic encephalopathy.” The cause of these deaths was pure and simple over drinking promoted by Gatorade and the ACSM.

It’s time to drive Big Soda out of fitness and by extension, the health sciences.

On the upside, I missed another important contribution, this one not deadly but lifesaving. Dr. Timothy Noakes, MD, DSc has tirelessly led the battle against the Gatorade/ACSM alliance and their deadly corruption of sport and health science for nearly twenty years. Dr. Noakes’ book “Waterlogged” is a brilliant and courageous accounting of this unbelievable story and a major contribution to training and sport science. I salute him.

http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=86218

2

I don’t get it. In very hot condtions at a moderately high intenity level (think 70.3) you may require as much as 40oz of fluid per hour. YOu would need a certain amount of electrlyte replacement to avoid hyperatremia. Under cooler normal conditions, 15-25oz is enough.

It’s not complicated science. It’s a simple mass balance. You consume a certain amount of water when your muscles metabolise sugar for motion. You expend some more breathing. Finally you consume the most from sweating to cool your body and typically lost a lot of dissolved salts in the process.

Makes sense to me. The only think neglegent might be the vauge recommendation that you consume water only or sports drink. That’s not an issue for efforts under maybe 90-120 minutes. For for longer efforts, it becomes an issue if your not eating food with sodium or potasium during that period.

You could easily blame the trend toward eating low sodium diets. That’s not nssesarily the best recommendation for a endurance athlete training at a high volume.

That being said, listen to yur body. You usally have clear signals when your thirsty, and will crave salty foods when you need salt, fatty foods when you have burnt a lot of fat stores and sugary foods taste great when your blood sugar is low. Geee… funny how that works.

3

That is brilliant. CrossFit has such a huge hold on the fitness world that with a single blog post, Glassman will take down ‘big soda’.

Funny that they took so long to take notice of this ‘issue’. Everyone has been talking about it for probably 5-10years. This isn’t new, why did CrossFit take so long to learn about this criminal cabul taking over science?

4

That being said, listen to yur body. You usally have clear signals when your thirsty

I don’t listen. I just don’t get thirsty while racing. I can race an entire IM without the slightest hint of thirst, then 15 minutes after the finish I become intensely thirsty (if I let myself get dehydrated). In a road race at 115 deg heat, I lasted 25 miles out of 70 because I forgot to drink for the first hour. Maybe I’m rare, n=1, etc, but the Noakes “drink when you’re thirsty” advice absolutely does not work for me.

5

This isn’t new, why did CrossFit take so long to learn about this criminal cabul taking over science?

He was too busy getting in that last extra set of Burpies.

IT’s been at least 6 monhs since hte last high profile case of Rhombo, so Crossfit has enough credibility again to try and make a statement. I think The Crossfit games are going on now, so plenty of folks are listening.

6

I don’t listen. I just don’t get thirsty while racing. I can race an entire IM without the slightest hint of thirst, then 15 minutes after the finish I become intensely thirsty (if I let myself get dehydrated). In a road race at 115 deg heat, I lasted 25 miles out of 70 because I forgot to drink for the first hour. Maybe I’m rare, n=1, etc, but the Noakes “drink when you’re thirsty” advice absolutely does not work for me.

I’m exactly the same way. Unless I force myself to drink, I won’t consume any fluids during a race or long training ride. Often times I’ll drink 1/2 bottle during 3hrs on the bike. I don’t notice any immediate performance drop in training, but definitely do in racing when it is a warmer day.

7

Problem is, thirst is a relatively late manifestation of dehydration, and indicates suboptimal fluid/electrolyte balance (and doesn’t work for some people at all, as some people here have pointed out.)

The scientific way of doing it is to measure your weight: the grams lost in weight equal mL of fluid you have to replace. Now, to invent the “bike scale”: put sensors in the handlebar, pedals, and seat post that monitor your weight in real time while riding. Inventors, anyone?

8

this guy can go to hell. for years i have had to listen to or read about the crossfitters claims against other exercise modalities and have never really cared one way or another. most people in exercise fields usually do not have proper education and most of the attacks i have seen go up against said people. but to go after the scientific community and claim that they somehow how are aligned to hurt the population as a whole for profit is total crap. first, the acsm is comprised of hundreds of fellows who have no skin in the game other than being part of a large structure of phds and mds to better understand sports medicine. there are general recommendations based on overwhelming, i say again overwhelming, evidence. not recommendations based on ONE study or maybe TWO if they are lucky that might be contrary to what is already accepted. its one thing when crossfitters go up against bro science or someone’s misunderstanding of certain physiological principals that is due to reading a few fitness articles or from their back of the magazine/week long seminar personal training certification… its another when they have a platform to reach masses and say that an organization like the acsm is wrong. the whole point of the acsm or the nsca is to bring the brightest scientists together so that we can get it right. the guy is an ass hat as someone stated above.

9

you may require as much as 40oz of fluid per hour.----is this water or is this a CHO beverage of less than 8%? Is this 40 ounces of fluid per hour trainable or just for the few lucky individuals? Is 33 ounces/1 liter per hour a better “marker” to aim for? Lots of questions and many different answers from individuals and “researchers” over the years.

10

he is a little bit late to the party

how many years has it been since “we” recognized that failure to replace the calories, electrolytes and water lost during exercise, and then simply diluting the remaining body stores by water only, was a bad idea, and potentially fatal?

the only “crime” I see is the recent B—S— marketing of Gatorade with “no salt, no calories” (ie. colored flavored water)

WTF

11

I wouldn’t have even bothered reposting that nonsense. No point in expanding his audience.

12

I don’t listen. I just don’t get thirsty while racing. I can race an entire IM without the slightest hint of thirst, then 15 minutes after the finish I become intensely thirsty (if I let myself get dehydrated). In a road race at 115 deg heat, I lasted 25 miles out of 70 because I forgot to drink for the first hour. Maybe I’m rare, n=1, etc, but the Noakes “drink when you’re thirsty” advice absolutely does not work for me.

I’m exactly the same way. Unless I force myself to drink, I won’t consume any fluids during a race or long training ride. Often times I’ll drink 1/2 bottle during 3hrs on the bike. I don’t notice any immediate performance drop in training, but definitely do in racing when it is a warmer day.

You have to learn to listen to your body. Would be difficult in a road race I imagine where there is a lot going on, but definitely doable in a long triathlon with no one around. You just can’t tune out at any time. Especially if it’s hot. Once you learn to tune in though, hot weather racing becomes easy.

13

Glassman is what is holding Crossfit back in my opinion, whenever he speaks my IQ drops. I like CF and many of its general exercise principals but some of his tangents are just off the wall.

Also how is Gatorade promoting over drinking? Did i miss something?

14

His main issue seems to be the 1996 ACSM Position Stance regarding hydration during exercise:

http://www.mhhe.com/...udent/appendix_k.pdf

He’s read “Waterlogged” by Tim Noakes and has latched onto the same phrase that Noakes did, where guidance was given to “…consume the maximal amount that can be tolerated.”

Yet Noakes and Glassman are guilty of continually ignoring the first, and most important part of the sentence upon which that statement is dependent.

“During exercise, athletes should start drinking early and at regular intervals in an attempt to consume fluids at a rate sufficient to replace all the water lost through sweating (i.e., body weight loss), or consume the maximal amount that can be tolerated.”

It would all be laughable except for the fact that CrossFit now has over 9000 affiliates and hundreds of thousands of members (possibly millions?) who buy into his way of thinking. He’s proven to be quite successful at building his influence by making bombastic statements and creating strawman arguments. It will actually be interesting to see where this goes now that he has also unleashed his CFHQ “Internet Goon Squad” (the Russell’s and his attorney Dale Sarin) onto the cause.

Basically ACSM has done a couple studies critical of CrossFit and he’s convinced himself that this is ticket for revenge.

That thread actually made for an interesting read, as there have already been a few CrossFit posters, guys with over 1000 posts, who have been banned for saying WTF? to him. I’ll actually quote one as it was hilarious:

What exactly just happend over the past 11 pages?

“…what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.”

I think that sums up this entire discussion.

But really, are we moralizing about the marketing of sugar water because a statistically insignificant amount people don’t understand the idea of moderation? Really? This is a battle you’d like to fight?

The cognitive dissonance on display in the arguments for driving “big soda” out of the fitness industry is, frankly…well not surprising.

So “big soda” = bad, then alcohol would have no place in fitness right? Even if it was marketed in a way that would appeal to a younger fitter demographic. CF would never take money and allow a compan…

Oh right…

http://games2011.crossfit.com/conten...d-vendors.html

But that was just vendor, just there to sell product to all the fans. They wouldn’t, oh I don’t know allow a corporate sponsor who markets fat, salt and sugar laden food to spon…

http://games2009.crossfit.com/sponsors/

Ohhhh! Man…really? Ok, ok…well we know after reading all these studies from as far back as 1996 according to one of the Russell’s, that Gatorade is bad right? So we’ve known about this and would NEVER allow them to spons…

http://games2008.crossfit.com/

godamnitsomuch

So I’m a bit confused now, is this just moral relativism or did HQ give back the money paid to them by Gatorade, Panda Express and Michelob Ultra?

I’m sure you’re aware all links are wfs

“Smokey, you’re cool…I’m outta here.”

This post is what his guys are trying to drive home. Both posters are HQ employees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian chontosh http://board.crossfit.com/images/darkblue/viewpost.gif

I don’t care about Tonicity. I care about Sodium regulation. Again, we get off track… Why are we over drinking? Who told Cynthia that she needed to drink 1.2 L/hour to stay safe?

Tosh,

I fear you may be letting Gatorade/ACSM get off easy. The 1.2 L/hour was a bare minimum for Gatorade:

“as recently as January/February 2002 (ie, 11 years after EAH was proved to be due to overdrinking), the GSSI placed an advertisement in the New York Runner magazine, and presumably elsewhere, with the banner statement: ‘Research shows your body needs at least 40 oz. of fluid every hour (ie, 1200 ml per hour) or your performance could suffer’. This conclusion is allegedly based on the results of ‘thousands of tests’ conducted by the ‘scientists of the Gatorade Sports Science Institute’ who have ‘studied it for over 15 years in research facilities all across the country’.”

source (w/f safe):http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2658915/

In short, Gatorade did not stop at funding the ACSM’s bad hydration science - they distorted and misrepresented the ACSM’s bad science. The New York Runner ad also ran in the North West Runner magazine, and presumably elsewhere:http://faculty.washington.edu/crowth...confuse2.shtml (w/f safe)

Contrary to Gatorade’s distortion, the 1996 ACSM recommendations used 1.2 L/hour as a maximum, not a minimum value, with the caveat that a runner should only drink as much as he could tolerate. The 1996 recommendations were excessive, and the 2007 ACSM recommendations implicitly recognize that. Yet Gatorade was still not satisfied with how much hydration the 1996 guidelines recommended.

If the ACSM objected to their platinum sponsor’s misrepresentation of their guidelines, I’ve found no record of it. An ethical scientific body would have spoken up.

The need to remove Gatorade’s pernicious influence from exercise science could not be clearer.

15

I don’t listen. I just don’t get thirsty while racing. I can race an entire IM without the slightest hint of thirst, then 15 minutes after the finish I become intensely thirsty (if I let myself get dehydrated). In a road race at 115 deg heat, I lasted 25 miles out of 70 because I forgot to drink for the first hour. Maybe I’m rare, n=1, etc, but the Noakes “drink when you’re thirsty” advice absolutely does not work for me.

I’m exactly the same way. Unless I force myself to drink, I won’t consume any fluids during a race or long training ride. Often times I’ll drink 1/2 bottle during 3hrs on the bike. I don’t notice any immediate performance drop in training, but definitely do in racing when it is a warmer day.

You have to learn to listen to your body. Would be difficult in a road race I imagine where there is a lot going on, but definitely doable in a long triathlon with no one around. You just can’t tune out at any time. Especially if it’s hot. Once you learn to tune in though, hot weather racing becomes easy.

Thanks, I’m well away of how to race and plan my hydration needs. If we take Noakes out of context and pick on a specific phrase, mainly his concept of drinking when the body tells you it needs fluids, we come out with the same flawed logic that Glassmen is claiming Gatorade promotes.

16

*Rhabdo, but point taken haha
.

18

I just read through their threads and then did a bit of research. It appears EAH is a relevant issue to triathletes much more so than to crossfit which is sort of ironic that crossfit has taken it upon themselves to lead the charge. Any high level sports med people on here who can possibly add to the discussion? I read a few journal articles which suggest it is a real issue but not that common and another article which suggested it is in fact more serious than previously thought?

19

Slightly off topic, slightly on topic.

The Emperor’s fueling plan for his 2007 marathon WR in Berlin, where he reportedly lost just under 10% of his body weight (12.5 pounds!) off his already svelt frame:

http://www.runnersworld.com/drinks-hydration/haile-gebrselassies-world-record-marathon-fueling-plan

This example shows a bit of both worlds. The Emperor had poor luck when attempting to fuel on a ‘as needed’ or when he was thirsty basis. He establishes a very aggressive schedule for fueling, but still well-outside of the limiting water losses to 2% recommendations.

I think one of the big take-aways is where do you lie on the spectrum? A ton of the published research and guidance is based of elites. If you are a 5-hour marathoner, you are not consuming the same amount of fuel as someone running 2:20-2:04…or even a sub 3:00 marathoner.

I think we have all seen where the guidance is not applied in quite the right manor, but in a way, it seems like a lot of the publications (i.e. competitor group), spend more time on articles relating to fueling, after workout snacks, and gear, than training (those people buy a lot of ad space so who can blame them?). So then we go to a local 5k with an out-of-shape newbie that has a fuel belt with 3 flasks (who no doubt started running to attempt to loose weight, but in fact is taking in more calories then burning off). One for each mile because they read some article about some sort of replacement rate based on time with total disregard to intensity and weather. Are You Kidding Me? I don’t take fuel on a run until I’m running 16-20 miles. I don’t use fuel in a half marathon, and don’t use much fuel (perhaps 1 or two packs and one bottle of water/Gatorade) in a triathlon that will take less than 2:30 (think really difficult course Olympic or XTERRA).

I think it’s really easy for a casual reader of some of these articles and apply it to them because the target audience is really poorly described, or not described at all.

ACSM and GSSI may do a very good job if they had the opportunity to establish a plan for every individual, but attempting extrapolate to the masses is always going to harm a few on the fringes.

20

By the way, here’s journal article that shows that the elites generally disregard some of the recommendations:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22450589
.

21

So he had 1.1L per hour and lost 5.7kg thats a total loss of 3.8-3.9L per hour? I am having a hard time with what they reported, 3.8L per hour for a guy who is 125-130lbs and trained and adapted for WR performance? Not saying its not true, but we do weigh ins pre/post on our long runs and I rarely see over 2L per hour even amongst the larger guys in the heat.

Maurice