Calling all forum fishes:
I have been doing mostly swim training over the past few months and determining pace by the 3x300 average threshold given in the Swimming Workouts binder by Gale Bernhardt and the Hansen brothers. Since I swim on my own 98% of the time, I use the workouts in this binder to have structure. If I use the 3x300 average times, then my pace is 1:28/100m. Recently, I tried the CSS method to determine threshold (400m time and 200m time). From the CSS method, my threshold is measured 5 seconds slower, 1:33/100m. Some of the workouts in these binders incorporate below pace swimming, i.e. pace - 2 seconds. For me, there’s a big difference in holding a 1:26 pace for 200m versus a 1:31 for the same distance. I struggle with the 1:26 pace but find it difficult to slow enough for a 1:31 pace. I am inclined to try the CSS method for several months to see if that increases my aerobic capacity. I guess one can make the analog to a long and slow run versus 1 mile repeats above lactate threshold.
What do most of you use to determine pace?
Also, for those who swim on their own, do you use a tempo trainer to maintain that pace? Does it help? Any recommendations on brand?
There is no pace clock (nor a clock with a second hand) in the hotel pool I swim in 80% of the year. I’m one of those who will start fast and then slow as the swim set progresses and feel I need something to maintain a steady pace.
The 3x300s were tested in a 21.3m pool while the 400 and 200 were both done in a swim meet on the same day in a 50m pool. 400 time was 5:48 while the 200 time was 2:43. The 3x300s averaged 4:24.
The 3x300s were tested in a 21.3m pool while the 400 and 200 were both done in a swim meet on the same day in a 50m pool. 400 time was 5:48 while the 200 time was 2:43. The 3x300s averaged 4:24.
Which was first? Sounds like you have good turns, so 3X300 on 25 yard vs 50 meter will be faster, also not sure of dive start in the meet vs wall start etc.
I don’t swim in yard pools but if I did an 800 TT (or 400 or 200) in 25 yards vs 25M or 50m then I know I would be faster…you have about 10% more chances to push off the wall…do the math on 50m vs 21.3m.
For reference we do 800 TT’s as one measure of threshold, having said that also sets of 50-200 and occasional 400 sets. So for us there needs to be a correlation between 15X100 and 10X400 and 800 TT. (say for longer IM swimming)
In terms of the clock…if you are really stuck then you can wear a watch with repeat timer and re-adjust always to what pace you want. We have big clocks on the wall so generally I am not a big fan of people wearing watches (learning the clock is part of the “art of swimming”). You could also set the repeat timer and wrap the watch around the lane rope facing down so every time you turn you will hear it.
My first thought is to use the 3X300 with the plans GB puts out and CSS with the plans they put out.
My next thought is to go as fast as you can for each set while completing the workouts as prescribed (with the appropriate rest) regardless of who writes them. Keep in mind that if a set says to go easy/moderate/hard that is subjective.
Next, I use a 1000 yard time trial to set my paces. (Time/10)+15 seconds is my base send off time. That can be subjective too, some days I’ll use 1:45 for my send off time while others I’ll go as low as 1:35, most of the time I use 1:40 from my testing.
I have used a tempo trainer but I find it annoying in a 25 yard pool, I like it in a 50M pool though.
Yes/No. It depends on what you are doing and what you need…another discussion altogether. I found that it told me where I was but it was difficult to change paces on the go.
I use the Finis tempo trainer.
You could find a cheap watch at Walmart to use at a pool that has no clock.
The subjectivity you bring up is what is hard within a given set. Most workouts have a variety of swim distances and I find myself pushing hard on the 100s (because I can aerobically/mentally). The workouts then progressively work to a distance where you are to swim “fast” for 200-300m. Does that mean to give 100% of what you have left? Or should I be trying to swim that at pace (whichever that is)? If pace, I am not able to accomplish this distance at pace.
You also say to go as fast as I can within a given set. But that would be swimming anaerobically which cannot be maintained for a long period. The same can be said for running. Throughout the week, shouldn’t most of my swimming be done above pace? This is my quandary. I have been swimming each set as fast as I can as you mention. However, if I were to graph my progress (time/distance) over the last few months, it would show a decreasing curve followed by a stable region and now an increased time over the same distance.
Your times are very similar to mine for the 200 and 400.
Couple of things. The 200 and 400 were done LCM, the 300s were done in a shorter than 25m pool. My LCM times are about 2.5s/100 faster than SCM, so 1:31LCM is close to 1:29scm which closes the gap a bit. I have pretty good flip turns, that’'s why I have a big delta in m/100.
I find the 200/400 method MUCH more in line with what I can hold for a 1500m which is probably a better measure of your threshold.
The 30s between 300s in her test gives me too much time to recover. I can then do a 300 faster than my threshold pace.
Some of those threshold sets where she is asking for T-3, then T-4, then T-5 for a few 100s, I barely scrape through. I think that is what she wants, so my threshold can’t be too far off.
I suspect you are 1:31ish in a long course and depending on the quality of your turns a little better in a SCM pool.
I’ll start with with saying I’ve used the book “Workouts in a Binder” so I’m familiar with what you are doing.
By using the 3X300 test that Gale prescribes you should be able to accomplish the paces set in the workouts. You may be at what you feel is 100% at the longer distances, if you cannot make the send off time (with the pace prescribed) then you should increase it and swim a little bit slower.
Having the rest between each interval and sets is very important to swimming correctly. If you do not have enough rest then all of your intervals will be slower than needed for you to improve the most. Many masters swimmer fall into the thinking that if they can make the interval with only a few seconds of rest then that is OK. IMO they might as well do a straight swim.
By getting the prescribed rest you will be able to swim faster for each interval which is what most people need. It sounds like the 3X300 way of setting the interval is just a little too fast for you right now and adjusting it down slightly may be in order. I would suspect that after a month of swimming those workouts you will be able to hit the paces it prescribes.
When I say to go as fast as you can within a given set I mean that you should go the pace that the workout prescribes with the feeling it describes. I think some of the workouts say “fast” or “easy”. If it calls for fast then go fast for how you feel. Some days you may be able to go a few seconds faster, some days a little slower. Do the best you can evenly do for the whole workout.
Swimming is different than running, if you are running at the upper limit of your weekly mileage then most of that will be easy with maybe two days of faster running. While swimming, you will hit every workout hard.
There is a time to go easy with swimming and there is a time to go hard as well as longer sub-threshold days and short sprint days. You will find that swimming hard will produce the best results unlike running where at our level mileage is king.
Calling all forum fishes:
I have been doing mostly swim training over the past few months and determining pace by the 3x300 average threshold given in the Swimming Workouts binder by Gale Bernhardt and the Hansen brothers. Since I swim on my own 98% of the time, I use the workouts in this binder to have structure. If I use the 3x300 average times, then my pace is 1:28/100m. Recently, I tried the CSS method to determine threshold (400m time and 200m time). From the CSS method, my threshold is measured 5 seconds slower, 1:33/100m. Some of the workouts in these binders incorporate below pace swimming, i.e. pace - 2 seconds. For me, there’s a big difference in holding a 1:26 pace for 200m versus a 1:31 for the same distance. I struggle with the 1:26 pace but find it difficult to slow enough for a 1:31 pace. I am inclined to try the CSS method for several months to see if that increases my aerobic capacity. I guess one can make the analog to a long and slow run versus 1 mile repeats above lactate threshold.
What do most of you use to determine pace?
Also, for those who swim on their own, do you use a tempo trainer to maintain that pace? Does it help? Any recommendations on brand?
There is no pace clock (nor a clock with a second hand) in the hotel pool I swim in 80% of the year. I’m one of those who will start fast and then slow as the swim set progresses and feel I need something to maintain a steady pace.
Finis Tempo Trainer is the standard. I don’t actually know of any others, but I’ve never looked. I’ve never used one, but I know realAB uses one all the time and loves it. The other thing you can do is get a waterproof stopwatch with big numbers and attach it to something. There may also be an iPad stopwatch app that would work (you need one that will not go into power-saving mode).
I find that if I use a 400m TT time, then that gives a pretty good pace / 100 for most sets of X x 100 getting 20-25 seconds rest. I also wouldn’t bother “slowing down” for a 1:31 pace. (although I don’t really understand why you have issues slowing down by only a couple of seconds per 100, I have no problems swimming slower, to a point. I’m just pulling less hard, moving my arms a little slower.)
Those test set times are really just to give you a baseline. I wouldn’t bother getting too hung up on whether your CSS is 1:28 or 1:30. They just give you a starting point, then if the set is too easy or too hard, adjust accordingly.
I’m too much of a structured person to adjust and adapt in a workout . If it tells me go T-0:02 then that’s what I’m going to push for. I would then have to take a longer recovery time before the next swim. I guess learning to adapt in a workout and even within a set is what I will need to accomplish.
I am having to take longer recoveries anyway due to the pool situation. The indoor pool is normally kept at 29-31C (with some days as high as 34C and when I swim at lunch, the ambient temperature outside is at least that (northern Iraq) although it is starting to cool down. Too many people want to use the pool as a Turkish bath and complain when the temperature is too low. For them, even 29C is too cold. There are no lane lines which isn’t all bad since I can get some simulated rough water swims when there are folks next to me churning through the water creating good waves.
I will try the CSS test again from a push start versus a racing dive (although my racing dive is pretty pathetic). In all likelihood though, that will only enlarge the gap between the CSS and the 3x300 test. Also the CSS test was done in a race environment versus a training environment.
The 100s at T-0:05 I don’t seem to have a problem with. It’s the multiple 200s and 400s at T-0:02 to 0:03 where I struggle.
My flip turns are also something I need to work on.
Calling all forum fishes:
I have been doing mostly swim training over the past few months and determining pace by the 3x300 average threshold given in the Swimming Workouts binder by Gale Bernhardt and the Hansen brothers. Since I swim on my own 98% of the time, I use the workouts in this binder to have structure. If I use the 3x300 average times, then my pace is 1:28/100m. Recently, I tried the CSS method to determine threshold (400m time and 200m time). From the CSS method, my threshold is measured 5 seconds slower, 1:33/100m. Some of the workouts in these binders incorporate below pace swimming, i.e. pace - 2 seconds. For me, there’s a big difference in holding a 1:26 pace for 200m versus a 1:31 for the same distance. I struggle with the 1:26 pace but find it difficult to slow enough for a 1:31 pace. I am inclined to try the CSS method for several months to see if that increases my aerobic capacity. I guess one can make the analog to a long and slow run versus 1 mile repeats above lactate threshold.
What do most of you use to determine pace?
Also, for those who swim on their own, do you use a tempo trainer to maintain that pace? Does it help? Any recommendations on brand?
There is no pace clock (nor a clock with a second hand) in the hotel pool I swim in 80% of the year. I’m one of those who will start fast and then slow as the swim set progresses and feel I need something to maintain a steady pace.
Just to clarify, neither determines your threshold pace. Threshold pace in swimming is determined by T30 or T3000 test. I would suggest that you use the test set that is used by specific program in this case. Coaches that designed the plan used that set to determine intensity levels. I would not mix the test sets and plans.
I’m too much of a structured person to adjust and adapt in a workout . If it tells me go T-0:02 then that’s what I’m going to push for. I would then have to take a longer recovery time before the next swim. I guess learning to adapt in a workout and even within a set is what I will need to accomplish.
I am having to take longer recoveries anyway due to the pool situation. The indoor pool is normally kept at 29-31C (with some days as high as 34C and when I swim at lunch, the ambient temperature outside is at least that (northern Iraq) although it is starting to cool down. Too many people want to use the pool as a Turkish bath and complain when the temperature is too low. For them, even 29C is too cold. There are no lane lines which isn’t all bad since I can get some simulated rough water swims when there are folks next to me churning through the water creating good waves.
Too much structure really isn’t good, IMO. You need some structure, but too much can happen day to day that affects your speed. I have days when I’m hitting 1:08’s, no problem. Other days I struggle to hit 1:13’s. This week I was even slower than that (illness, plus strained my back as well doing a few hours of lifting logs in the backyard. Didn’t swim while I was sick though.
I learned to swim as an adult using the Swim Smooth methodology, which incorporates the
Finis Tempo Trainer as an important part of learning to pace and getting it right. So my feedback
is coming from this background.
I can’t say enough good things about the Finis Tempo Trainer. It really is the gold standard for
accurately pacing pool sets. The stroke rate beeper mode is also an incredibly powerful training
tool as well. I can’t recommend it enough, especially for how inexpensive it is compared to all
the other triathlon gear.
The 3x300s were tested in a 21.3m pool while the 400 and 200 were both done in a swim meet on the same day in a 50m pool. 400 time was 5:48 while the 200 time was 2:43. The 3x300s averaged 4:24.If you are swimming SC for training and did the 3x300 in it, then you should to convert the LC times to SC times or test the CSS in the SC pool.
. If it tells me go T-0:02 then that’s what I’m going to push for. I would then have to take a longer recovery time before the next swim. I guess learning to adapt in a workout and even within a set is what I will need to accomplish.