I don’t think it’s ragging on IM. I think it’s stating the obvious. More and more races are having swim cancelled for whatever reason. If you think they are all valid, awesome. I don’t necessarily think it’s always valid, as I think more and more the default is to err on the side of safety. I mean by default when you say it’s “safety” you can’t really argue against that. Like no duh if the harbormaster won’t allow safety boats, you can’t have the swim. Or if your local LG’s who are 17 year old kids from the local municpale pool can’t operate a paddleboard in 1 foot chop, then of course you cancel the swim. Again there’s no downside to canceling it in today’s society.
Or they don’t cancel it, and we have the IM Cork discussion all over again.
I’m not a fast swimmer, but I’m generally pretty comfortable in the water in the “I’m really unlikely to drown out here†sense, and I’m of the personal opinion that we as athletes need to be better about saying “I’m not comfortable with thatâ€, self-selecting out and taking the DNS if we’re not appropriately prepared for the swim conditions on the day. And yes, that’s not the Slowtwitch crowd, by and large, and yes, I’ve said the same thing on Reddit where the “OMG, I just signed up for my first triathlon and it’s an Ironman and it’s in two weeks and I’ve never swum more than 10 yards before!†crowd lives.
But damn, it’s fairly obviously not the RD or Ironman or anybody’s fault if the local authorities won’t let you put boats in. If that’s not a legitimate reason to cancel a swim, what the hell is?
Well of course, if you can’t have safety personal in the water your not going to have a swim. But I think that’s sorta my point. You have races all across the country that’s local safety authorities range from “professional” waterman to the local yoco LG’s. So cool, this race should have been cancelled. Cool…you think every swim that gets cancelled should actually be cancelled? That’s where I question, but again when it’s a “safety” issue, that decision is basically non-negotiable. You think of all the races all over the US, how many have LG’s that are just from the local pool and who are just volunteering (paid) to do it. Sure they may have 1-2 professional fire/safety boats out there, but the majority of LG’s at most races are just your run of the mill LG’s. Most don’t have “open water” LG experience, so when it’s 1 foot wind chop and they can’t stay on the stand up paddleboard, guess what…cancel the swim. And again it’s an easy call to make these days, why even take the chance anymore when as you put it, I think we’ve lost a lot of personal accountability for ourselves. We are reliant on others and not able to truly make smart decisions and be ok to say, “I’m not ready”…But again there is a ton of pressure when you are talking about people investing tons of money/time into these events.
So I think what is “adverse” conditions in today’s climate is just different than what it was in the past. And no I’m not trying to go all high and mighty because I do think there are times when a swim needs to be cancelled; again if there is no safety boats or the harbor has been closed for a week…no brainer decision.
I just think we now are kinda having to pay for our sins so to speak. It’s the good with the bad. Fantastic that IM and triathlon is so accessible, yet the downside is that we now basically have a culture that lacks real personality accountability. And I think we default to cancelling a swim at any potential “adverse” conditions too often. But again I can understand why in the culture we live in now. And many times you have people drowing who aren’t the ones out there without real training for it. People are having medical issues that they can’t simply get proper help from in an aquatic environment, so you add that element, hell we seemingly are fortunate to have swims.
What utter rubbish.
Huh. You should meet some bad ass California lifeguards. Must be different from the middle of the country or wherever you’re posting from
How many of you were in Cozumel on Nov. 19th?? I was. The “safety†issue is BS. There were boats out by the swim start already. There were no waves. No current. A 10kts wind. Ironman is lowering itself race-by-race.
It is not a matter of “put up with whatever race format the RD thinks ofâ€. That is not an ironman triathlon. Is not a crossfit competition to see how much weird stuff can you do running up and down. If it rains in Wimbledon they don’t just change the game to an indoors frontenis or pingpong game… if triathlon wants to be taken seriously, it just can’t change its format for whatever reason and then in a very Slowtwitch fashion, blame the athletes who say an Ironman is an Ironman: swim, bike, run. Not a “ if that ocean is not flat†we do a bike-run. If it is not safe to swim, then it is not safe to do the triathlon. Period. But in Cozumel there was no severe winds/thunderstorms/swells… it was FLAT. A little choppy. A little. And if you want to see it by yourself, check the link posted a few post before, and then express your opinion. We are not talking about if it is a safety issue. We are taking about that there was no REAL justification for canceling the swim. The mexican navy guys that said they didn’t give permission did not support their opinion on any weather reports of forecast. Come on, there were even people doing SUP a few minutes later! Although they probably were not “ironman athletesâ€, just some random tourists washing up the hangover…
“If triathlon wants to be taken seriously”
Not sure what this means when you think about it. Triathlon is a multifaceted sport with all kinds of stakeholders that take it seriously.
Would anyone argue no one takes Ironman, the largest athletic event promoter in the world seriously? Looking at the contracts they manage to convince cities the world over to sign, to say nothing of the various sponsorship agreements, I think Ironman is taken very seriously.
If what you’re saying is that we want the general, uneducated population to suddenly increase their take-it-seriously rating for triathlon, more than they already do (and they generally do see it as a taxing, serious physical commitment), then I’m not sure how Cozumel or other venue cancelations cause less serious opinions to occur.
First and foremost, because if that above cohort is the target demographic for taking it seriously, well, they didn’t even know Cozumel was happening. So they don’t care about the swim being canceled.
The city officials take the event seriously, and if anything, seeing an event that is willing to upset its participants and cancel or shorten part of it in the name of safety? Well, that shows they are serious. So cities will be more trusting in the future. They take this stuff seriously!
All I can say on this is, from reading everything, it sounds like IM should have just gone with a shortened swim. It’s surprising there wasn’t a way to figure that out.
But we also need to accept that you don’t get everything perfect. You get too much or too little. You can have too many deaths from conditions in situations that could have been controlled or you can have too many “unnecessary” cancelations. Take your pick. People dying or hard core Ironman crying.
Your highlighting the issue. Pretty much all races basically use local resources to staff their events. There’s no national federation of “bad ass” Lifeguards showing up at every triathlon event. In your instance, you get great LG’s with plenty of open water experience. I’ve seen plenty of races where they just use LG’s from the local pool who may or may not have open water experience. So you add even a small bit of wind or current chop to someone trying to use a kayak or SUP or board and suddenly they may struggle, and again it could be very little environmental factors affecting them. But if they suddenly can’t perform their LG duties, the race has to cancel the swim.
So your position then is Cozumel IM water safety uses unqualified staff?
No my position is that from race to race the quality/experience of a LG that is part of the safety crew will vary greatly. No where in my statement have I mentioned anything about being unqualified. I believe the only requirement is to to use certified LG. I don’t believe in any regulation do they have to have open water experience; unless you say the 10 min orientation before they get in the water qualifies as “open water” experience.
Well you said the 17 year old life guard from the “municipale†pool. Unless that’s a typo that seems to be a reference to the local pool in MX
So if you’re not claiming the above, that the staff was qualified, what do you think IM’s motivation to cancel in CZM was given the report above that it was super calm? If we’re talking about an existential shift to IM races, we need to identify the cause of the shift to try to change it.
No that’s a generalization that I used from the many races I’ve attended in over 15 years of experience in the sport. I don’t see as many “bad ass” LG’s that you see.
So here’s the concern. “Conditions” don’t matter what they are if the LG staff can’t properly do their job. So if a ripple of wind causes the LG’s to not be able to balance on the SUP/kayak/insert whatever vehicle they use to LG the swim, you can’t have the swim. Period
So it doesn’t matter if it’s “calm”, if the LG staff that is tasked to LG can’t be in position to LG the swim, they cancel the swim. It would be complete liability otherwise. So I’m not saying that means they are suddenly “unqualified”. Unqualified is a very dangerous term when you are talking about liability, etc, and as far as I’m concerned with regulations, once an LG is certified through whatever governing agency, that “qualifies” them to act as a LG (regardless of actual experience they have).
Right, and we’re taking coz but you said it wasn’t the skills of the staff here. So why do you think IM had a motivation to cancel what by the reports on this site was an easy swim?
The actual conditions of the swim is irrelevant in today’s climate more and more. It’s pretty much likely way more to do with the condition of your staff to deal with environmental conditions. That’s likely the biggest motivating decision for races.
Right, and we’re taking coz but you said it wasn’t the skills of the staff here. So why do you think IM had a motivation to cancel what by the reports on this site was an easy swim?
For the record, yes the water, both by the start and finish areas, looked rather calm. But it was definitely not the case over the whole course. We saw that very clearly while on the bus taking us to T1.
Ok so it is unskilled (note did not say unqualified) staff that caused Coz cancellation. Glad we cleared that up
I am curious as to why Dr Triax DNF’d as a result of the cancelled swim
I have no clue what the actual cause for this race. You asked the motivation and I’ve told you likely what led to many swims being cancelled when the conditions look “normal”. Which again imo goes back to CYA as a RD/race company. There’s no real downside to canceling a swim from a legality standpoint.
100% agree with you here ALG. I was at the Cozumel cancelled swim start and did the race, and the ocean was not for swimming for everyone. I live by the ocean, I surf in overhead+ waves year round and this was to be my 16th Ironman race. Very bummed out that we could not swim that day, but:
I completely understand and respect the RDs decision to cancel the swim. What I hear is that it was NOT up to Ironman wether the swim conditions were approved or not, but local authorities.
What we saw from the bus taking us back to T1 was that the buoys on the swim course were not even set up, suggesting that the IM organization probably knew that there was not going to be any swim.
As discussed in the Kienle thread, you cannot assess a strong current from land. The day after the race, local fishermen took us snorkling on the Cielo reef in Cozumel. They told us that the current has been bad and opposite the swim direction for days now, and some swimmers would not even have made the first buoy in these conditions. If saw the safety paddle boarders struggle just standing up, not even moving around.
As most things in the world today, dimensions of being “hardcore” is diminishing and the more “woke” (or safe?) lifestyle is becoming more dominant. The Ironman brand is dealing with legal & brand issues after Ireland & South Africa swim deaths. I get it.
T
For the record, yes the water, both by the start and finish areas, looked rather calm. But it was definitely not the case over the whole course. We saw that very clearly while on the bus taking us to T1.
… If it rains in Wimbledon they don’t just change the game to an indoors frontenis or pingpong game…
No, they cancel or postpone the match, or they play on a covered court. The equivalent is canceling the swim or moving it into a swimming pool. I don’t know of many Ironman events that have the capability to move their swim into a pool for ~2000 participants. Do you?
I raced a sprint earlier this year where there was a tornado warning issued while I was in the water. Because I started in one of the later waves there were athletes who were already riding before I finished my swim, but by the time I got into T1, they were not permitting athletes to go out on the bike. So I lost my best leg of the race and ended up doing a swim-run. I wouldn’t have entered a swim-run. It was not the race I wanted to do, and I was hella disappointed. But it was something I knew could happen, because I signed up for an outdoor event where there are things beyond my control.
At some point, either you have to trust the people who are running the race, or you have to not enter. The swim in Cozzie was canceled as a safety issue, based on local knowledge of the conditions and currents. Just because you personally didn’t think it was a safety issue, people who know better than you disagreed. Or maybe they didn’t know better than you, and they made a wrong call. But based on what I’m reading from other people who were at the race, they made a pretty sensible call.
There is no win for the RD in these situations. People either bitch that they didn’t get to swim and they should have, or that the swim was dangerous and should have been canceled. I’m amazed anybody wants to direct races, given what a bunch of whiny assholes triathletes are.
There is no win for the RD in these situations. People either bitch that they didn’t get to swim and they should have, or that the swim was dangerous and should have been canceled. I’m amazed anybody wants to direct races, given what a bunch of whiny assholes triathletes are.
Thank you for saying this. And we wonder why some of the small local races have gone away?!? Maybe we should just appreciate that we get to do this sport whether it be a SBR or a SB or a RBR or a BR. Be thankful that we can just get up in the morning and participate. At the end of the day, this is our hobby. Give grace.