"Cool Black" vs. white (DeSoto Skin Cooler) question

Triathlon Forum
1

I did search and read the previous threads on this, but, most were dated. So, here is my questions -

How much do you notice a difference in color of your tri clothing?

For the Door County HIM this weekend, it is supposed to be HOT. So, I am looking at a DeSoto white trisuit vs. DeSoto Forza Tri Shorts and Craft “cool black” (cannot remember the real name) black/grey top.

I prefer the pad in the black tri shorts. But, will I be better off in the white DeSoto tri suit (which is non-see through and has skin cooler in the side panels)? Or, does the “cool black” technology really work?

Any recent experience to share? Thanks!

2

Bike in whatever you want. Change into this in T2. Keep it wet during the run with aid station water.

http://www.sunprecautions.com/product/15400

I’ve tried DeSoto arm coolers and 3-pocket tri top, the Pearl Octane tri suit with Coldblack fabric, and several other sun shirts. For running, I’ve found the white, loose-fitting, breezy Solumbra shirt above both cooler and more comfortable (less cling, better breathing) than any skin-tight option. I even ran loops testing different shirts with an IR thermometer one hot afternoon to verify.

Don’t worry about your shorts – they don’t get much direct sun. Wear whatever is most comfortable.

If you have a full head of hair, a visor is cooler than any hat. Keep your hair wet with aid station water. (I’m still looking for a visor w/ neck cape for the ultimate hot-weather headwear…)

3

i have to respectfully disagree here!

i’ve been talking a lot lately with 1 of my professors that studies thermoregulation and there’s a ton of research that shows that less clothing is better(yes, that means arm coolers too). I would go with a light color-ed tri top. Shorts don’t really matter as much

4

I have the DeSoto Skin Cooler (white long sleeve), and as long as you keep it wet it’s awesome!
But time is ticking and nothing new race day and all…

5

i have to respectfully disagree here!

i’ve been talking a lot lately with 1 of my professors that studies thermoregulation and there’s a ton of research that shows that less clothing is better(yes, that means arm coolers too). I would go with a light color-ed tri top. Shorts don’t really matter as much

I’m aware of several conflicting studies in this area, and have commented about it in the past on ST:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=3366754#3366754

I also test textiles for an outdoor magazine, and have studied the subject for years.

Bare skin has some serious disadvantages in sunny hot weather:

  1. Skin has a lower albedo than white fabrics and so absorbs more radiant heat from the sun.

  2. Sun exposure on bare skin should be minimized for health reasons.

  3. Any sweat that drips off your skin does not contribute to evaporative cooling, whereas fabrics can capture this moisture and allow it to evaporate.

  4. Bare skin has less surface area from which to evaporate moisture than the best cooling fabrics.

A loose-fitting, high albedo, highly-ventilated shirt like the Solumbra one in my previous post essentially provide the benefits of bare skin (water can evaporate directly off of the skin surface and high airflow across the skin), while providing sunburn protection, shading the skin, and allowing excess sweat to cool the microclimate between the skin and shirt.

6

i have to respectfully disagree here!

i’ve been talking a lot lately with 1 of my professors that studies thermoregulation and there’s a ton of research that shows that less clothing is better(yes, that means arm coolers too). I would go with a light color-ed tri top. Shorts don’t really matter as much

I’m aware of several conflicting studies in this area, and have commented about it in the past on ST:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=3366754#3366754

I also test textiles for an outdoor magazine, and have studied the subject for years.

Bare skin has some serious disadvantages in sunny hot weather:

  1. Skin has a lower albedo than white fabrics and so absorbs more radiant heat from the sun.

  2. Sun exposure on bare skin should be minimized for health reasons.

  3. Any sweat that drips off your skin does not contribute to evaporative cooling, whereas fabrics can capture this moisture and allow it to evaporate.

  4. Bare skin has less surface area from which to evaporate moisture than the best cooling fabrics.

A loose-fitting, high albedo, highly-ventilated shirt like the Solumbra one in my previous post essentially allow the benefits of bare skin (water can evaporate directly off of the skin surface), while providing sunburn protection, shading the skin, and allowing excess sweat to cool the microclimate between the skin and shirt.

I agree with the sun exposure part, but that’s about it. My professor is a member of the Korey Stringer Institute(http://ksi.uconn.edu/) which is widely recognized as one of the best resources for information on exercise and heat! I’m going to trust him, the research he’s done, his Ph.d, and the multiple places on the site where it advocates minimal clothing.

7

I agree with the sun exposure part, but that’s about it. My professor is a member of the Korey Stringer Institute(http://ksi.uconn.edu/) which is widely recognized as one of the best resources for information on exercise and heat! I’m going to trust him, the research he’s done, his Ph.d, and the multiple places on the site where it advocates minimal clothing.

Fair enough. Research is ongoing. I’m just conveying the results of my personal testing, which may eventually turn out to be flawed. If you have any links to your prof’s work on the subject, please share.

Nevertheless, there is also a good body of anecdotal evidence that supports the “light loose clothing for sun/heat” approach. Look at ultrarunner’s clothing for races like Badwater. Or, look at indigenous clothing in hot, sunny parts of the world.

Finally, what about my other bullets (1, 3, and 4) do you not agree with?

8

I agree with the sun exposure part, but that’s about it. My professor is a member of the Korey Stringer Institute(http://ksi.uconn.edu/) which is widely recognized as one of the best resources for information on exercise and heat! I’m going to trust him, the research he’s done, his Ph.d, and the multiple places on the site where it advocates minimal clothing.

Fair enough. Research is ongoing. I’m just conveying the results of my personal testing, which may eventually turn out to be flawed.

Nevertheless, there is also a good body of anecdotal evidence that supports the “light loose clothing for sun/heat” approach. Look at ultrarunner’s clothing for races like Badwater. Or, look at indigenous clothing in hot, sunny parts of the world.

The other reason I’m trusting his recommendation, is that a lot of research done in the past few year has proven many things with anecdotal evidence to be completely untrue. A few examples:

1)Many triathletes and runners love to wear hats(instead of visors) so they can fill the hat with ice at aid stations, put it back on, and have it cool their head. Science says-nope; not a big enough area to have a cooling effect on the body(it may feel good, but that’s about it)

2)Many triathletes wear visors, believing that it helps with cooling. Science says-nope; the only difference between a visor and nothing is a little sun is kept off your face.

3)As mentioned earlier, arm coolers are another example. They may feel good, but they actually help keep heat in(better quality one’s do this to a lesser extent, but they still do it). The positive to these is that they go protect you from the sun though

9

The other reason I’m trusting his recommendation, is that a lot of research done in the past few year has proven many things with anecdotal evidence to be completely untrue. A few examples:

1)Many triathletes and runners love to wear hats(instead of visors) so they can fill the hat with ice at aid stations, put it back on, and have it cool their head. Science says-nope; not a big enough area to have a cooling effect on the body(it may feel good, but that’s about it)

I agree, visors are better than hats. That said, ice in a hat can have the beneficial effect of melting and dripping cold water over your neck and shirt in addition to cooling the head.

2)Many triathletes wear visors, believing that it helps with cooling. Science says-nope; the only difference between a visor and nothing is a little sun is kept off your face.

All I expect from my visor is to keep the sun off my face and keep sweat out of my eyes. I would like to see a commercial visor with neck cape to keep the sun off the back of my neck, though.

3)As mentioned earlier, arm coolers are another example. They may feel good, but they actually help keep heat in(better quality one’s do this to a lesser extent, but they still do it). The positive to these is that they go protect you from the sun though

The efficacy of arm coolers depends on the amount of solar gain, relative humidity, and availability of water. They’re much better in sunny dry environments,* than cloudy humid ones. They are also much more effective if kept wet.*

If you have any links to your prof’s work on the subject, please share. It sounds interesting.

Finally, what about my other bullets (1, 3, and 4) in post #6 do you not agree with?

10

All else being equal Cool Black isn’t as cool as white. This is information put out by the makers of Cool Black.

On a related subject, has anyone noticed how difficult it is to get running shorts in any color but black?

11

All else being equal Cool Black isn’t as cool as white. This is information put out by the makers of Cool Black.

On a related subject, has anyone noticed how difficult it is to get running shorts in any color but black?

Yep. Coldblack attempts to reflect more light in the IR spectrum. But, the IR spectrum only comprises a fraction of the total radiant heat from the sun.

http://www.schoeller-textiles.com/uploads/media/coldblack_e.pdf

12

Sonofabitch. My initial question was the white vs. cold black. My gut said white. Sounds like you guys agree. Good.

Now you have me questioning my damn hat! Although, I do have to say, I have been a firm believer in the hat (with ice, etc.). But, we have had some 100+ days here, so, for the hell of it, I tried a visor and poured water on my hair/head. Felt cooler. Sounds like there is some science (anecdotal at least) to support my perception.

13

I think DeSoto triathlon gear is good stuff, but I am definitely not sold on the idea of arm coolers, particularly BLACK ones, as offering any benefit. The heat trapping alone would offset any cooling gains.

If this idea of water retention so there’s increased cooling were so legit, you should have entire contoured hoods for your head as that’s where the most heat is generated and dissipated.

I also seriously doubt that black can possibly offer a cooler solution than white, IR spectrum or not.

14

A statement from the previously mentioned link:

“Wear loose-fitting, absorbent or moisture wicking clothing”

Reading this indicated link, makes one think this information is directed at football coaches, athletic trainers and their teams. It appears doubtful (without actually looking at the specific references indicated in this link) that any testing was performed on triathletes, triathlete clothing or during triathlete activities. There is a heck of a difference in body size between football players and most triathletes. Their activity is also unlike. Finally the late George Sheehan (famous runner/doctor/writer) often mentioned “we are an experiment of one”. What works for you may not work for me.

15

If you look at the website some more, you’ll see the minimum clothing recommendation for endurance athletes as well. As far as “What works for you may not work for me”-that is true with a lot of things, but no with a lot of the details of thermoregulation. It doesn’t matter if you’re a 140 lbs triathlete or a 265 lb football player: darker clothes still attacks more heat that lighter clothing and the more clothing you wear the the more heat gets trapped in your body(the bigger athlete needs to drink more fluids and might heat up quicker, but most of the physiological mechanisms and principles of thermoregulation remain the same). I’m not trying to offend anybody, but I know what I’m talking about-not only does some of my knowledge come from a phd professor who specializes in thermoregulation, I also have a bachelors and masters degree in exercise physiology.

16

What link are you talking about?

EDIT: Never mind. I found your quote on the ksi site.

17

If you look at the website some more, you’ll see the minimum clothing recommendation for endurance athletes as well. As far as “What works for you may not work for me”-that is true with a lot of things, but no with a lot of the details of thermoregulation. It doesn’t matter if you’re a 140 lbs triathlete or a 265 lb football player: darker clothes still attacks more heat that lighter clothing and the more clothing you wear the the more heat gets trapped in your body(the bigger athlete needs to drink more fluids and might heat up quicker, but most of the physiological mechanisms and principles of thermoregulation remain the same). I’m not trying to offend anybody, but I know what I’m talking about-not only does some of my knowledge come from a phd professor who specializes in thermoregulation, I also have a bachelors and masters degree in exercise physiology.

I assume you mean the ksi site. Got a link? The only thing I found there regarding minimal clothing was this:

“Phase-in use of equipment with minimal equipment and clothing during hot humid days. Have athletes
wear loose-fitting and absorbent clothing.”

…which is in agreement with my advocacy of loose-fitting clothing. The “minimal” verbage seems to be in the context of heavy gear like football pads and such, not bare skin vs ventilated sun shirts for runners.

As for clothing trapping heat, it’s a bit more complex than you suggest. For dry skin in the shade, clothing inhibits conductive and convective heat transfer from the skin to the air when the skin is warmer than the air. (Though if the air is warmer than the skin, this works in reverse and clothing slows the heating of the skin from the air.) But, when you add solar radiation and evaporative cooling (sweat or external water) to the mix, it is not so simple. Light, damp clothing that still allows high airflow can reduce the radiative heat gain and increase evaporative cooling compared to naked skin.

The Solumbra shirt I mentioned upthread works particularly well when running because the bellows action pumps air between the shirt and skin. Solar gain to the skin is reduced, the air next to the skin is cooler than ambient, and increased airflow enhances evaporation.

18

Can anyone comment on this:

I read that loose white clothing reflects your body heat back at you, so you should wear tight white clothing. Tight white clothing cannot reflect your body heat back at you. While loose black clothing will absorb your body heat and if there is any sort of wind, cool you. However tight black clothing will warm you up since it absorbs your own heat, holds it against your skin, and the wind cannot blow through the fabric and take the heat away.

The information was based mainly on a study of birds and their fur color vs if it was fluffy or close to their skin.

Thoughts?

19

Can anyone comment on this:

I read that loose white clothing reflects your body heat back at you, so you should wear tight white clothing. Tight white clothing cannot reflect your body heat back at you. While loose black clothing will absorb your body heat and if there is any sort of wind, cool you. However tight black clothing will warm you up since it absorbs your own heat, holds it against your skin, and the wind cannot blow through the fabric and take the heat away.

The information was based mainly on a study of birds and their fur color vs if it was fluffy or close to their skin.

Thoughts?

Generally, dark fabrics do absorb more radiant heat than light ones. But…

dark objects usually also have higher emissivity than light ones, meaning that they radiate more heat for a given temperature than light ones.

If the goal is to stay as cool as possible, the side of your clothing facing the sun should be white to minimize radiant absorption. The optimal color of the inside of your clothing depends on the relative temperatures of your skin and the clothing. If the skin is warmer than the clothing, the best inside fabric color is black; if the clothing is warmer than your skin, the best inside color is white.

But practically, the effect of the inside color of your clothing is very small compared to the other clothing attributes we’ve discussed here. A fabric that is white on one side and black on the other is probably thicker and therefore likely has higher thermal resistivity (i.e. more insulation) and/or less air permeability than a mono-color fabric.

All of this assumes that an airspace exists between your skin and the clothing. If the clothing is skin-tight, heat conduction of the fabric is the primary factor and the color is largely irrelevant.

20

Sonofabitch. My initial question was the white vs. cold black. My gut said white. Sounds like you guys agree. Good.

Now you have me questioning my damn hat! Although, I do have to say, I have been a firm believer in the hat (with ice, etc.). But, we have had some 100+ days here, so, for the hell of it, I tried a visor and poured water on my hair/head. Felt cooler. Sounds like there is some science (anecdotal at least) to support my perception.

Brother, if it*** feels*** cooler to you, then rock it! Science be damned, either way. Racing in the heat is every bit a mental battle as a physical one - if there’s something you do that makes you feel better, then just do it.

Calf sleeves are my example - two seasons ago, I was plagued with Mad Calf. Wearing the sleeves while racing felt like it helped keep it at bay, but I have no clue if it actually did. Hell, it most likely didn’t at all. But it made me feel better, and that was a significant mental confidence boost.

Smoke 'em if ya got 'em.

Cheers, Chris