tried doing some searching…coming up empty…if i’m a crappy searcher just let me know and point me in the right direction…
toe down vs flatter foot at bottom of the pedal stroke…why would someone want one vs the other…given they are biking with the intent of running afterwards…
any resources are greatly appreciated!
tinkering with saddle height…of course…and always feel better with heel lower/almost flat at the bottom…lower saddle height (mirror in my garage to verfiry)…don’t have a power meter to measure difference…going to download kinovea tonight to get some measurements but would love some input on the foot at the bottom.
If your seat is set to the right height it should take care of itself and lead to kind of a flat foot style, some people drop the toe after 6 o clock when pushing a big gear, look at pictures of good TT riders to confirm this. On hills at low rpm, some riders will allow the heel to drop at the bottom of the stroke. Riding an over-large gear on a misfit bike can lead to a strange pedal stroke, all things being equal, learning to ride 90 rpm’s without bouncing and keeping a quiet upper body will make the rest fall into place.
One thing to keep in mind on a triathlon TT fit vs. a road bike fit: Having a very steep seat tube angle and a higher seat as most people use for triathlon rotates you around the bottom bracket. Therefore if on a road bike your foot is completely flat at the bottom of the pedal stroke, in the triathlon position you will be slightly toe down, even if all your body angles are exactly the same.
Don’t force it to be one way or another. The more anterior pelvic tilt you have and the more you rotate around the bb the more toe down you will appear. Most people just jam the saddle full forward, no pelvic rotation and chop off a portion of the stroke with a posterior tilt.
My road and tt hip angles are within 2 degree of each other at BDC. TT looks quite toe down, road is almost flat. My tt position is merely a rotated road bike position.
Look at these guys…not that they are perfect, but they are pretty doggone good cyclists and put down some smack on the Queen K. You can also look at a guy like Sebastian and he appears flat footed…not a thing wrong with his position! But a lot of folks see toe down and scream ‘saddle too high’ or assume it’s bad.
my question then really is…how much toe down is appropriate? what would be wrong with being too flat or too toe down? trying to get a better understanding of the “why”, not just there “how” of this…
one easy indicator of a too high seat is your hip bones rock side to side when you pedal, someone can see from behind or look at your shadow. It also leads to a sore crotch as you slide side to side when you pedal.
If you are reaching down with your toe at the bottom of the stroke it’s too high.
i guess i do break my ankle a little when I pedal:
here’s a couple good pedal examples, not the break in the knee at the bottom of the stroke
One thing to remember is that with a tri bike you have essentially tilted the rider through roughly 5-6 degrees of forward rotation, which is why you are less likely to find the classic Sean Kelly flat foot at the bottom of a pedal stroke on a tri bike, the foot is typically angled down slightly with the same mechanics deu to that body rotation.
The purpose of the flat foot (in a road position) is to engage the hamstrings and glutes more. Pointing the toe more will tend to transfer a greater percentage of the muscle recruitment to the quads which are a much smaller muscle group. One thing to note about this is that triathletes must run off the bike, and so it is important to consider your running mechanics and muscle recruitment when determining optimal position on the bike - if you are a runner who tends to kick a lot and runs more with the glutes and hamstrings, then transferring muscle recruitment on the bike to the quads is a good thing. Pro cyclists are thinking about how to ride efficiently for 6-8 hours and them climbing off for a shower and a massage. Triathletes don’t work like that, so what is optimal for one may be optimal for the other.
As for saddle height and hip rock, this is a very good point, if your hips are rocking your saddle is too high. But flexibility will play a huge role in this. I’ve worked with some time trialists and triathletes who have a 35-degree bend in their knee (when their foot is level) who ride with a profound toe-point at the bottom of their pedal stroke and still have their hips rocking all over the place because their flexibility is atrocious. In this sort of instance, yes you want to move the saddle down to prevent injury while training, but improving flexibility to help them fix their mechanics and become more efficient is critical as well.
I have been told that biomechanically, heel down (really just keeping the foot flat) is most powerful as it stacks the bones in your foot and creates the most solid power transfer. YMMV.
my quads certainly tend to fatigue first when running…as my running pace has increased, ive seen a lot less quat fatique and more overall leg fatigue…
ok so foot doesn’t have to be flat…but not too pointed…140-150 deg in the knee and bottom of the pedal stroke…don’t want to be rocking…my hamstrings are super tight but my back is pretty flexible…so i’m sure id rather err on the side of slightly too low since muscles do tighten as they fatigue (later in race)…
…ok so foot doesn’t have to be flat…but not too pointed…140-150 deg in the knee and bottom of the pedal stroke…don’t want to be rocking…
That about sums it up.
The classic ‘it depends’ applies to folks that use excessive toe down and reach to preserve that mid 140s knee bend or those that are so tight that they’re reaching and hip rocking even though they might be less than that expected range of knee bends. But if you’re not rocking, not excessively reaching and stay supple throughout the stroke and you get a knee bend at full extension somewhere in the 140 to perhaps 150 degree range with multi sport athletes often not pushing to the higher end of that range, then I wouldn’t worry about your specific toe down.
No selective quoting here, I was genuinely interested in the physiology behind it, I’ve never heard that rationale before. I guess you are too used to people on ST being argumentative.
Sorry. The best way to explain it is comparing power transfer through a stiff BB, crank, wheel, shoe sole, versus a flexy one. Generally speaking, the flexy component is going to be less efficient as power is transfered into flex instead of directly into the wheel (and propulsion). Think of your tib/fib as a piston. if you could transfer downward power directly from tib/fib (stiff bones) to pedal spindle it would maximize efficiency of the power transfer. Your ankle adds additional instability to the system so you want to stack the bones in your foot to minimize this instability thereby maximizing the power transfer. Hope this clarifies it a bit.
OK, I think I understand…so If I have a downward pointed foot at the bottom of the pedal stroke, I am likely introducing ankle instability throughout the stroke, and therefore a potential loss to optimum power transfer?
Technically, yes although it is most relevant in a high wattage situation in which case you may naturally drop your heel and stack the foot/ankle. You will notice that while a lot of pro cyclists have a natural toe-down pedal stroke, they flatten the foot (drop the heel) on the downstroke when climbing.
Theoretically toe-down may also be introducing unnecesary strain to your calf muscles, ankles, and feet, which could result in additional fatigue on the bike/run.
If you are reaching down with your toe at the bottom of the stroke it’s too high.
Can we please stop repeating this as if it is fact?
Many people have “toe down” pedaling styles and it has nothing to do with their saddle being too high. It is just what is more comfortable / natural for them. Most people would say my seat is too low (dropped it slightly due to IT issues)…guess what? My toes almost always point down.
And while I may only be a N=1 example, the same is true for many, many cyclists and triathletes. The automatic refrain of “Your saddle is too high” when someone is pictured pedaling toes down is misguided, at best.
If you are reaching down with your toe at the bottom of the stroke it’s too high.
Can we please stop repeating this as if it is fact?
Many people have “toe down” pedaling styles and it has nothing to do with their saddle being too high. It is just what is more comfortable / natural for them. Most people would say my seat is too low (dropped it slightly due to IT issues)…guess what? My toes almost always point down.
And while I may only be a N=1 example, the same is true for many, many cyclists and triathletes. The automatic refrain of “Your saddle is too high” when someone is pictured pedaling toes down is misguided, at best.
First off their is a difference: reaching down with your toe or pedaling with a toe down. The former necessitates a plantar flexed position to push down while the latter doesn’t. My ankle is more or less fixed the entire stroke with no plantar or dorsi flexion.
It’s also just a fundamental misunderstanding of what happens to a rider when they are firmly loading up the saddle and rotate around bb. The vast majority just slide forward w/o changing their pelvic orientation. THAT robs one of power and comfort by chopping off a portion of the pedal stroke. Some toe down is inevitable if one is rotating around the bb. I don’t think many people can conceptualize sitting in their road position and simply rotating everything as a unit to a tt position. Sadly I think a ton of fitters don’t get it too with what I see riding around locally. Just atrocious positions that I know people paid hundreds for…
