Just curious what people think about coaching athletes from inside the race. I was always under the impression that as a coach that I couldn’t enter an IM and act like a pace bunny for my athlete. From what I can gather from the discussion on the Belgian Peleton - that as long as you ride/run within the rules - you can pace your athlete. You could offer advice on nutrition, pacing, company, positive motivation and encouragement etc.
Is this practice commonly employed?
It’s legal but sounds like you need to toughen up your athlete or prepare them better.
Just curious what people think about coaching athletes from inside the race. I was always under the impression that as a coach that I couldn’t enter an IM and act like a pace bunny for my athlete. From what I can gather from the discussion on the Belgian Peleton - that as long as you ride/run within the rules - you can pace your athlete. You could offer advice on nutrition, pacing, company, positive motivation and encouragement etc.
Is this practice commonly employed?
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Couples and families do this all the time but seriously,coach your athlete to think for themselves.Unless of course they are willing to pay you a shitload to enter a race and follow them around all day playing nanny.
Mike,
It’s a good question. Clearly, if the person giving the advice and “helping” with the pacing is also entered into the race we are into a grey area, where the answer is not so straight-forward.
We have seen instances of this come up with some top AG or B/C Level Pro men who are similar in fitness speed to their high ranking Pro wives. What would you call that? How would you referee it? If they are both “racing”, other than them keeping within the rules ( not drafting off of one another, in particular) what could you do?
In running races, technically, according to the IAAF pacers and rabbits are not allowed - yet on the track and on the road, in everything but the World Championships and Olympic Games, it’s pretty obvious that they are there. The rabbits/pacers even get an extra bonus for hitting their goal time and can share in the bonus pool if a certain record is broken!
Back in the recreational masses the use of Pace Bunny’s in big Marathon races has become common-place.
Back in the recreational masses the use of Pace Bunny’s in big Marathon races has become common-place.
Yep. The Rock and Roll series (at least here in Phx), the pace bunnies carry a big sign stating their pace.
John
I agree with it being a grey area for sure and I would definitely coach my athletes to be self sufficient out there. I was in a 5000m on the track recently and a couple of us were “pacing” a few good female runners to hit qualifying standards. A few of the coaches on the sidelines screamed at us when they realized that perhaps we were not running our own individual races.
If pacing and working as team from within the race while respecting the rules is allowed - I am thinking it could move out of the grey area and into acceptable. Maybe its not in sync with the spirit and intent and idea that IM is and should be a solo effort.
If pacing and working as team from within the race while respecting the rules is allowed - I am thinking it could move out of the grey area and into acceptable. Maybe its not in sync with the spirit and intent and idea that IM is and should be a solo effort.
Legal does not equate to ethical. Also, to me your rationalizing the answer you want.
If pacing and working as team from within the race while respecting the rules is allowed - I am thinking it could move out of the grey area and into acceptable. Maybe its not in sync with the spirit and intent and idea that IM is and should be a solo effort.
x2…This shit is going to start getting totally out of hand soon.
Soon? It is already in the past tense. The Belgian thread was just the latest example, but coaches are doing this all the time be their athletes FOP or TNT new athletes. I think Mike is tabling a fair question as it seems to be happening more than it used to. To some degree this is no different than paying for an Everest expedition and effectively paying for a Nepalese guy to haul you up 29,000 feet (or at least guide you to the point of telling you where each step goes.
As Fleck points out, it is grey area, because it would be almost impossible to police. I’m racing an Ironman this weekend, and there will be at least three guys in my training group coming out of the water in the near vicinity. While reading the Belgian thread, I was thinking, “my guys are on their own on race day…it is an individual sport” and I don’t think I want their achievements diluted by having me around. If I happen to be around, I’ll be another competitor doing my race.
Dev
My coach and one of his (much) more talented athletes were both in Kona for IMWC. The racer (at 1st Kona)
was struggling off the bike a coach saw him coming apart on course and paced him in on for most of the run.
He blogged openly about ‘helping a brother out’.
I don’t see anything wrong either by letter or spirit in pacing around MOP… I’ve run with many people
in races long and short who happened to be ‘fellow travelers’ that I met mid-race. I don’t think knowing the
person ahead of time makes that illegal.
Pacing for placing is another matter and while it may be legal for a pro or coach to pace their wife/GF/Client
into a podium slot by the letter, it definitely defeats the spirit. Imagine busting your ass for a Kona slot and being
passed with a few miles to go by someone in your AG with a stud next to them breaking a headwind, counting calories,
carrying a water bottle, etc…
.
I have a bit of a question about how these rules apply for so called placement vs. those touring.
This is why.
Sometimes, it is important for someone to break say 15 hours, and they care about their placement. It might be a big deal for them to finish say 199th vs 200th in the age group just as it might be important to someone to finish 9th vs 10th. It is all in perspective. The guy who gets bumped into 200th vs 199th, because he saw someone drafting, cutting the course, using fins, doing EPO race week in the hotel (name your crime), may feel ripped off because he was deprived of his goal.
In this end, this is sport, and just like whether you are playing house league or for for Manchester United against Manchester City, we apply the rules as if we are in a premier league event.
Personally I don’t like the fact that it is assumed that the rules should be applied to those racing for position but not to those further back in the pack. We are all racers when the event starts, and it would be nicer if everyone played inside the rules.
As for the original question, being paced by a registered participant is inside the rules. It is hard to say where to draw the line. I’m of the opinion that we should all do our race. If two friends are having a tough day late in the race, find themselves on the course together and want to be partners in misery and just get through it together with some comraderie, and motivate each other along, I’m OK with that. But then you’d say that we might bump somone into 200th place on account of running with each other in which case I can’t reallly argue (…but the kind of example I speak of was Stadler and DeBoom shuffling in for their final Kona marathon for each guy). I do have an issue with a pre meditated plan out of the gate (but there is no way to police this). Many times, guys who have never met each other end up pacing the entire bike and run off each other. That is just pure competition. Sometimes unknown guys blow up, become partners in misery and shuffle in together. That’s cool too.
I met a very good friend in the Toronto Marathon in 1999 in the first 5k. We talked, we had the same goal that day which was to go sub 3 and try to go closer to 2:55. We traded pulls for the next 37k or so and got down in the 2:56/2:57 range. We’ve been friends since (goes by Konaexpress on this forum…7x Kona finisher). The “plan” instantly materialized on the race course, but it is not like anyone was waiting for the other guy. It just so happened that we ran together until the final kilometer or so when there was a slight separation in the sprint finish.
Just curious what people think about coaching athletes from inside the race. I was always under the impression that as a coach that I couldn’t enter an IM and act like a pace bunny for my athlete. From what I can gather from the discussion on the Belgian Peleton - that as long as you ride/run within the rules - you can pace your athlete. You could offer advice on nutrition, pacing, company, positive motivation and encouragement etc.
Is this practice commonly employed?
Now THAT would be going the extra mile for your athlete!
We have seen instances of this come up with some top AG or B/C Level Pro men who are similar in fitness speed to their high ranking Pro wives. What would you call that? How would you referee it? If they are both “racing”, other than them keeping within the rules ( not drafting off of one another, in particular) what could you do?
Back in the recreational masses the use of Pace Bunny’s in big Marathon races has become common-place.
I see this quite often in my part of the pack, running and tri/du. I had to yell at a couple repeatedly at the Toronto tri/du because they were riding side by side and blocking me, with the guy on the outside. I would go around them, they would catch me, and the male would stay on the left of the woman, blocking me again. I finally got ahead of them but it was extremely frustrating, and there were no officials around at that time.
The challenge is, in what part of the pack is it ok? If I’m a masters woman in a local 10km around here, 47 minutes is a pretty good time, so I’m going to be pissed if there is a guy pacing his wife to a 46 and bumping me off of the W40-49 podium. But to others, that would be considered the middle of the pack, and wouldn’t think it was a big deal.
At the same time, I have frequently drafted off of guys (unbeknownst to them), in running races with a head wind, and then once we turn out of the wind, I go ahead of them. I’ve gained a benefit over the women behind me who maybe don’t know about drafting. I have the benefit of my cycling knowledge and being only 5’2" behind larger men, so I know how much difference it can make. Is that unfair?
and I think Pace Bunnys are great. I have a friend who routinely paces at the 2:45 half and 5:30 full marathon pace. I did a 2:45 run/walk with her and her group at the Mississauga marathon a few years ago and I was moved to tears at several points, by the gratitude shown by her group, most of whom were hitting PBs at that pace and never thought they could break 3 hrs.
Lots to think about here…
Dev,
All good. It’s hard to know where to draw the line on this.
Steve,
Hope you are well. Certainly pacing and psychological alliances unfold in every race for most every one at some point during the day. I mostly agree with Dev’s analysis but will add that paying a coach to pace/assist/help during a race seems to cross the gray area for me…personally, I think it is unethical even if it is legal. Our sport is supposed to be an individual event, or at least it was. It disappoints me that a coach would ask this question.
HI David - my thougths on this are in line with Steve and Dev. I am not a fan of premeditated team or coach pacing. It does provide a huge adventage for the person being paced. My sentiment and motivation for starting the thread was that the Belgian brothers used pacing assistance and it bothers me that they did. I dont fault them for it - I just wouldnt advocate that people do this. AT this point I would not consider doing it for an athlete - despite knowing that it would help them go faster. If it becomes commonplace - then I would have to reconsider my position if athletes or clients were expecting this service. I guess the issue if it was banned - would be the difficulty in enforcing. So its one of those things that perhaps “culture and history” can influence peoples consideration of users pacers.
we ran together until the final kilometer or so when there was a slight separation in the sprint finish.
Dev, you’re burying the lead here. The people need to know, it could make all the difference when deciding whose expertise to trust if you guys ever disagree on a training topic 
I googled it but I won’t steal your thunder (or maybe it was Barry’s…I’m not telling!)