Chinese Unbranded Carbon Wheels vs Fake Zipps?

Triathlon Forum
1

Looking around I have found numerous people say they were happy with their eBay unbranded carbon wheels. I found numerous people say they are a good cheaper alternative to legit Zipp/HED/FF wheels. Then I have also seen tons of people warn not buy fake Zipp counterfits from China. But with a bit of digging it seems the unbranded wheels and fake Zipp wheels are esentially the same thing, just one has a Zipp sticker and the other does not.

Consider the following auctions:

Fake Fast Forward Chinese wheels: http://www.aliexpress.com/…-rim/1851291046.html

Unbranded Chinese wheels: http://www.ebay.com/…;hash=item232b96b357

They damn near look identical, less the sticker! Same hubs, same spokes, pretty much the same wheel less the tubular and clincher differences.

So, the question is, why are some hesitant to recommended buying counterfeit wheels, but not hesitate to recommend Chinese unbranded wheels to those on a budget? To me, they look like the same product, except one comes with stickers of a brand of one’s choice and the other does not. Seems strange to say the wheels with the Zipp logos are unsafe but the ones without any logos are safe when they seem like one in the same to me.

2

Why do you want to have a fake product? By wanting to put another brand’s logo on these wheels, there are obviously attributes of the brand you’re trying to emulate, whether they’re desirable physical attributes you wish to pretend to have, or less tangible values associated with the brand. All without buying the branded product and paying for the attributes you wish to emulate. I really think that is pathetic.

Get the Chinese, unbranded wheels that have the price/performance you’re willing to pay for and be proud of your choice. Why pretend to own something, other than purely for image? If the cost of an item you covet is higher than your perceived value of the product, that doesn’t make it acceptable to rip it off. Counterfeiting doesn’t require R&D; marketing to expound the qualities and benefits of a product; and advertising. Building these brands, and defending the brand for competition, is no easy task. Being in a position to be able to develop new products, which we as avid amateurs crave, costs millions. The penalties for counterfeiting are light.

It’s immoral to support counterfeiting; it under cuts the efforts of companies that spend money on the less tangible, intellectual development these wheels; adhere to quality assurance standards and have liability for their product. If you don’t value any of that, that’s a personal decision but don’t slap a set of stickers from another brand on a cheap set of wheels. Once again, why would you?

Firms that produce innovative products deserve our support. They need to keep innovating; offering unrivalled customer service; and respect intellectual property rights. All I can see here is that as you feel the price of the wheels is closer to what you want to pay, then you feel it’s acceptable to support counterfeiting.

Personally, I’ll be supporting the manufacturers that are trying to innovate and drive the sport forward.

I’d really like to see Dave (SuperDave) or Damon (damon_rinard) weigh in here over their thoughts on this subject and how they’d feel if this were a counterfeit Felt or Cervélo. Maybe some perspective into how counterfeiting damages their brand and affects their ability to develop new products will change your views on counterfeiting.

3

Why do you want to have a fake product? By wanting to put another brand’s logo on these wheels, there are obviously attributes of the brand you’re trying to emulate, whether they’re desirable physical attributes you wish to pretend to have, or less tangible values associated with the brand. All without buying the branded product and paying for the attributes you wish to emulate. I really think that is pathetic.

Get the Chinese, unbranded wheels that have the price/performance you’re willing to pay for and be proud of your choice. Why pretend to own something, other than purely for image? If the cost of an item you covet is higher than your perceived value of the product, that doesn’t make it acceptable to rip it off. Counterfeiting doesn’t require R&D; marketing to expound the qualities and benefits of a product; and advertising. Building these brands, and defending the brand for competition, is no easy task. Being in a position to be able to develop new products, which we as avid amateurs crave, costs millions. The penalties for counterfeiting are light.

It’s immoral to support counterfeiting; it under cuts the efforts of companies that spend money on the less tangible, intellectual development these wheels; adhere to quality assurance standards and have liability for their product. If you don’t value any of that, that’s a personal decision but don’t slap a set of stickers from another brand on a cheap set of wheels. Once again, why would you?

Firms that produce innovative products deserve our support. They need to keep innovating; offering unrivalled customer service; and respect intellectual property rights. All I can see here is that as you feel the price of the wheels is closer to what you want to pay, then you feel it’s acceptable to support counterfeiting.

Personally, I’ll be supporting the manufacturers that are trying to innovate and drive the sport forward.

I’d really like to see Dave (SuperDave) or Damon (damon_rinard) weigh in here over their thoughts on this subject and how they’d feel if this were a counterfeit Felt or Cervélo. Maybe some perspective into how counterfeiting damages their brand and affects their ability to develop new products will change your views on counterfeiting.

I dident say anything about buying or supporting fake rims you’re making incorrect assumptions. I am asking why some think the fake Zipps are dangerous, but the unbranded wheels are not, despite the fact they are more or less the same wheel. From what I can tell, it is quite possible the fake Zipps and unbranded carbons are made by the same people. Most of the Chinese rims more or less look the same and use the same parts.

4

Having sold both Fast Forward and Zipp Wheels I’m appalled anyone would consider knowingly buying a counterfeit.

It is dishonourable and shameful to manufacture, sell or purchase fakes.

Counterfeit wheels should be confiscated and destroyed.

5

So, the question is, why are some hesitant to recommended buying counterfeit wheels, but not hesitate to recommend Chinese unbranded wheels to those on a budget? To me, *they look like the same product, except one comes with stickers of a brand of my choice and the other does not. *Seems strange to say the wheels with the Zipp logos are unsafe but the ones without any logos are safe when they seem like one in the same to me.

I dident (sic) say anything about buying or supporting fake rims you’re making incorrect assumptions. I am asking why some think the fake Zipps are dangerous, but the unbranded wheels are not, despite the fact they are more or less the same wheel. From what I can tell, it is quite possible the fake Zipps and unbranded carbons are made by the same people. Most of the Chinese rims more or less look the same and use the same parts.

I have highlighted the part of your initial post that caused me to conclude your interest was in buying a set of generic, open mould wheels and slapping on someone else’s brand. If that assumption was incorrect, I think your initial post needs revising to make that clear. Coupled with the clear interest you have in counterfeit wheels, at this point I can’t apologies for the conclusions I’ve drawn.

When you buy a set of Zipp wheels (or Enve, or Reynolds, or Mavic for that matter), do you get a choice of brand decals?

6

Judging from your post history, I would say its safe to make the conclusion that you would be very interested in the counterfeit wheels on a price/(supposed) performance basis
.

7

Another thing that really annoys me is the Chinese Companies sometimes understate the true price on the documentation to allow the purchaser to avoid paying duty.

I wouldn’t trust wheels bought from a company selling counterfeit wheels.

The link to the company selling fake Fast Forward wheels should be removed, as should any links to sites selling fake goods.

8

Do you know why they look so similar? Because they are the same.

FFWD wheels are manufactured from the same open mold that all the unbranded Chinese wheels are. FFWD sources their rims from Chinese manufacturers, then they build (read: install hubs and spokes on) the wheels in the Netherlands so they can claim being hand-built. So the link to the FFWD wheel you found is “counterfeit” only because it is not being sold by FFWD company, but in fact is the same exact wheel cast from the same mold and possibly even from the same Chinese manufacturer.

9

The reason they are dangerous is because you don’t have the research, development, and safety testing that Zipp does. You have no idea if those carbon clinchers can withstand the heat of braking. Sure, you may save a lot of money buying them but I wouldn’t trust my life to them. Carbon clinchers should be left to the experts, not some company in China who copies them. How much is your life worth?

10

I think a lot of the Chinese wheels are not counterfeit, just very similar in design to Zipp or other mainstream CF wheels. Some people might be willing to take the risk and I dont see any problem with there being cheaper alternatives out there. Some people will always buy the big brands because thats what they are familiar with, or maybe they want a wheel with good factory support and warranty.

The ebay link that you posted does not seem to have any indication that they are trying to counterfeit or otherwise imply that they are name-brand wheels. They are just another CF wheelset. Sure they look alot like Zipps, but no where do they imply they are Zipp wheels, or even made in the same plant as Zipp wheels.

I think it is wrong to support anyone who is putting name-brand labels on knockoff wheels. But there are a lot of wheels out there that are under their own branding like CarbonZone linked above. Nothing wrong with that.

11

Do you know why they look so similar? Because they are the same.

FFWD wheels are manufactured from the same open mold that all the unbranded Chinese wheels are. FFWD sources their rims from Chinese manufacturers, then they build (read: install hubs and spokes on) the wheels in the Netherlands so they can claim being hand-built. So the link to the FFWD wheel you found is “counterfeit” only because it is not being sold by FFWD company, but in fact is the same exact wheel cast from the same mold and possibly even from the same Chinese manufacturer.

You need to read up on how a carbon rim is made.

You imply Fast Forward buy in any old carbon rims from any old back street Chinese supplier.

If a company is prepared to produce a counterfeit they are cheating scum bags and I wouldn’t trust them to make a safe wheel. They will cheat and cut corners in the manufacturing process just as they cheat by putting fake stickers on the wheels.

12

I think it is wrong to support anyone who is putting name-brand labels on knockoff wheels. But there are a lot of wheels out there that are under their own branding like CarbonZone linked above. Nothing wrong with that.

No there is nothing wrong with open mould rims being sold as open mould rims etc… with the vendor, or manufacturer’s name on them. Then consumers can make an informed decision as to whether the rim is worth any trade off for the reduced cost. The issue I took umbrage at was the OP’s suggestion of buying the rims and putting whatever brand he wanted on them. That is counterfeit goods.

13

http://www.ffwdwheels.com/tech/our-technology/

Are these cheap Chinese un branded rims the same as those described above?

14

http://www.ffwdwheels.com/tech/our-technology/

Are these cheap Chinese un branded rims the same as those described above?

And you imply that some fancy mumbo jumbo about “Darc technology” and a trade marked term “Ecom” means that FFWD wheels are of their own proprietary design.

15

http://www.ffwdwheels.com/tech/our-technology/

Are these cheap Chinese un branded rims the same as those described above?

And you imply that some fancy mumbo jumbo about “Darc technology” and a trade marked term “Ecom” means that FFWD wheels are of their own proprietary design.

Do you think it is ethical to put fake FFWD or Zipp stickers on cheap Chinese rims?

Do you think it is ethical to make and sell counterfeit goods?

How would you like it if some Chinese company started selling fake Tantalus wheels?

16

There is a perfectly valid ethical reason not to buy the one with the sticker. Additionally, there is a chance a company/reseller that is putting misleading stickers on the wheel will be less likely to be honorable in their dealings with you, should something go wrong.

Looking around I have found numerous people say they were happy with their eBay unbranded carbon wheels. I found numerous people say they are a good cheaper alternative to legit Zipp/HED/FF wheels. Then I have also seen tons of people warn not buy fake Zipp counterfits from China. But with a bit of digging it seems the unbranded wheels and fake Zipp wheels are esentially the same thing, just one has a Zipp sticker and the other does not.

Consider the following auctions:

Fake Fast Forward Chinese wheels: http://www.aliexpress.com/…-rim/1851291046.html

Unbranded Chinese wheels: http://www.ebay.com/…;hash=item232b96b357

They damn near look identical, less the sticker! Same hubs, same spokes, pretty much the same wheel less the tubular and clincher differences.

So, the question is, why are some hesitant to recommended buying counterfeit wheels, but not hesitate to recommend Chinese unbranded wheels to those on a budget? To me, they look like the same product, except one comes with stickers of a brand of one’s choice and the other does not. Seems strange to say the wheels with the Zipp logos are unsafe but the ones without any logos are safe when they seem like one in the same to me.

17

I’ve had good results with a pair of Farsports wheels that I use as everyday wheels. $600 delivered, no duties. Farsports and a few other resellers (Hongfu Miracle etc) are reliable and trustworthy. If dealing with Chinese resellers makes you nervous, there are always the domestic Planet X / Boyd / November type options that are still less than half the price of Zipps.

Why people pay $2,500+ for a set of bike wheels these days is beyond me. Twenty years ago, this would have been seen as absurd, how did this become something that people think is reasonable?

18

I’ve had good results with a pair of Farsports wheels that I use as everyday wheels. $600 delivered, no duties. Farsports and a few other resellers (Hongfu Miracle etc) are reliable and trustworthy. If dealing with Chinese resellers makes you nervous, there are always the domestic Planet X / Boyd / November type options that are still less than half the price of Zipps.

Why people pay $2,500+ for a set of bike wheels these days is beyond me. Twenty years ago, this would have been seen as absurd, how did this become something that people think is reasonable?

Now that is a good point. A bike with a top brand frame and top brand wheels with a power meter now costs more than a family car. Something went wrong somewhere.

19

http://www.ffwdwheels.com/tech/our-technology/

Are these cheap Chinese un branded rims the same as those described above?

And you imply that some fancy mumbo jumbo about “Darc technology” and a trade marked term “Ecom” means that FFWD wheels are of their own proprietary design.

Do you think it is ethical to put fake FFWD or Zipp stickers on cheap Chinese rims?

Do you think it is ethical to make and sell counterfeit goods?

I agree, putting the FFWD decals on the wheels and selling them as FFWD wheels is most certainly unethical. But we aren’t discussing the ethics of Chinese suppliers.

All I am saying is that, ethics aside, the rims that come from FFWD are the same rims that come from the unbranded Chinese suppliers despite what kinds of technology FFWD claims to have engineered. FFWD sources their rims from China and are not a proprietary design.

20

How much is your life worth?

You’ve got proof that they are in fact more dangerous then a name brand wheel?

no you don’t so why don’t we stop with this horse crap every time these wheels come up until someone actually has proof that they are even 1% more dangerous.

The only thing more pathetic than a counterfeit product are these claims.