“if” you were going to migrate to a different frame material other than carbon what would it be and why?
I think the choices are limited here.
The more and more I see all these cracked carbon frames the more I think about selling my bikes an moving to Titanium.
“if” you were going to migrate to a different frame material other than carbon what would it be and why?
I think the choices are limited here.
The more and more I see all these cracked carbon frames the more I think about selling my bikes an moving to Titanium.
where are you seeing all of these cracked carbon frames?
having given the N+1 formula a good workover for the past 20 years, I can say that none of the carbon framed road, mtn or tri bikes owned by me or my ridding buddies have ever cracked.
other than driving into an underground garage with a bike on the roof.
if you want a ti framed bike, then go for it.
It’s a numbers game. There are way more carbon bikes out there and so you see more carbon failures. Numbers not percentage of frames made. I personally like titanium and my go to road bike is a titanium bike. Carbon just makes sense for a tt/tribike since carbon can be shaped into the most aerodynamic design.
FWIW, I have seen ALL materials fail.
Yeah, I’d say that you’re seeing more cracked carbon frames simply because carbon bikes are far and away the largest proportion of bikes out there. There may indeed be more cracks among carbon frames, but observation and anecdotes aren’t a very reliable way to determine that.
I’ve owned steel frames, aluminum, carbon, and titanium. Titanium is by far my favourite - carbon is second, but not even close. Titanium is light, beautiful, comfortable, and - most important for me - worry free in terms of daily handling and corrosion.
Very challenging to make complex aerodynamic shapes with welded metals. I suppose you might be able to stamp out complex shapes for frames using steel… similar to the auto industry then weld them together. HUGE, HUGE tooling cost however to do that for multiple frame sizes. Maybe tubes could be modular in length and cut down. However, a right/left seam welded design would be the cleanest and need the fewest welds.
Honestly, if you concerned about structural strength, a metal frame can till fail and Ti and Al will both often fracture just like CF. Steel will tend to bend and stretch more, but with enough force all frame materials will fail, expecially when optimized for weight.
Cracked Carbon Frames? I really haven’t come across a lot of carbon frames being cracked or damaged from normal wear. Carbon is actually stronger than Aluminum for a frontal impact. From a material standpoint for a road bike - you really can’t beat the ride quality of OX Platinum Steel or Stainless steel frameset - Unfortunately - you just don’t have a lot of options and have to go with a boutique builder. The Moots Ti road frames are just amazing to ride. Always fun to have a build project and hand pick all your components for a great bike.
Good Luck!
Very challenging to make complex aerodynamic shapes with welded metals. I suppose you might be able to stamp out complex shapes for frames using steel… similar to the auto industry then weld them together. HUGE, HUGE tooling cost however to do that for multiple frame sizes. Maybe tubes could be modular in length and cut down. However, a right/left seam welded design would be the cleanest and need the fewest welds.
The best method for making shaped tubing is hydroforming, which wouldn’t require a seam weld (and a lot of manufacturers are already hydroforming their aluminum tubes, just usually with a focus on weight and stiffness, not aerodynamics). There’s still a large tooling cost, though.
Very challenging to make complex aerodynamic shapes with welded metals. I suppose you might be able to stamp out complex shapes for frames using steel… similar to the auto industry then weld them together. HUGE, HUGE tooling cost however to do that for multiple frame sizes. Maybe tubes could be modular in length and cut down. However, a right/left seam welded design would be the cleanest and need the fewest welds.
The best method for making shaped tubing is hydroforming, which wouldn’t require a seam weld (and a lot of manufacturers are already hydroforming their aluminum tubes, just usually with a focus on weight and stiffness, not aerodynamics). There’s still a large tooling cost, though.
I’ve heard of that term from Auto ads. So it’s is sort of like plastic blow molding in a sense? So using hydralic fluid pressure to force the steel tube into the shape of the mold.
…The more and more I see all these cracked carbon frames…
As above, where are you seeing these? And, what *specific *manufacturers?
I love steel frames. Not many options as laying up CF is much safer than welding or brazing for the Chinese workers producing them. It’s all about the children.
I don’t pick TT/Tri bikes based on material but based on the aerodynamic features. There does not currently exist any non carbon fiber bike with top notch aerodynamics, but there are a couple aluminum ones that are close - the P3 Aluminum, and some of the aluminum Treks.
Titanium, there is no option at all really except maybe the old Blade that is great, plus titanium cracks all the time too, see:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=3891647#3891647
Meanwhile we have 4 carbon fiber bikes in our garage, all of which have seen tons of racing and training and dozens of crashes and no cracks.
Remember the internet means you see every horror story that ever happens, so everything always seems terrible.
“if” you were going to migrate to a different frame material other than carbon what would it be and why?
I think the choices are limited here.
The more and more I see all these cracked carbon frames the more I think about selling my bikes an moving to Titanium.
It will really help to know your intended usage for the bike to make a sound recommendation. Tri - stay the course with carbon. Mass start - carbon aero, carbon non-aero or Al (e.g. CAAD) based on how much you care and price. In a race earlier this year, a crash took out my teammate and me - his CAAD dented, my FOIL is fine. There are many more variables to a ruined frame than material. If you’re not racing it, steel 100%. If you’re not racing and have deep pockets, Ti (or if racing and place a preference of ride quality over maximizing every bit of weight and stiffness).
Many have asked “where” I’m seeing all these “cracked” carbon frames. I provided a VERY small sampling of threads about cracked frames below. I only looked at the last few months not the last few years, I do have other things to do.
I agree with many of the suggestions and understand the reason that carbon “makes sense” in an aero critical position.
I do have a steel framed road bike already.
Looks like Titanium really is the only viable option for a true Tri bike that is not carbon and provide a premium performance compared to something like Aluminum.
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=4819744;search_string=cracked;#4819744
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4765762;search_string=cracked;#4765762
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4708385;search_string=cracked;#4708385
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4675867;search_string=cracked;#4675867
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4658300;search_string=cracked;#4658300
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4653071;search_string=cracked;#4653071
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4592218;search_string=cracked;#4592218
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4579091;search_string=cracked;#4579091
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3281784;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4080691;search_string=crack;#4080691
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=3790949;search_string=crack;#3790949
The first 2 out of 3… then I stopped… are from crashes not random failures when riding.
very thorough
.
very thorough
Why would I waste more of my time when you were basically saying you heard Hondas were not reliable because people hit telephone poles with them.
He has a point though. The vast majority of those are not failures, but damage resulting from crashes or other abuse. One of them wasn’t even clear about being structural (suspected crack in lacquer). It’s a selection bias too… think of the owners of pricey bikes, most of which are carbon. Will any of them be posting threads here called “My carbon frame ISN’T cracked!”?
Don’t think so. Fact it that entry-level road bikes up all have structural carbon. Most alu road bikes have carbon forks. Some high-end saddles have carbon rails. My handlebars are carbon and I know I’m not alone. If you want to be worried about carbon frames spontaneously cracking, go right ahead, but know that your fears of carbon bikes being inherently more prone to failure than bikes made of other materials are not based in reality.
FWIW, I have a cracked carbon frame at home. If it was made from steel it would still be broken - I had an unfortunate roofrack/carport accident. Having suffered that damage (reversing VERY slowly and stopping within about 2-3 inches of contact) I know how strong the carbon frame is… it dented my carport, bent the load bars on my roofrack and dented the car at the roofrack mount points. All for minimal damage to the bike. A steel frame would’ve suffered more damage. An aluminium frame likely would cracked too, perhaps more catastrophically.
Because had you read thru them you would have realized that one of those was my bike and not a result of a crash.
There were actually several of them that had nothing to do with crashes.
But really it’s a mute point. I understand the point you’re making that all bike regardless of material composition will realize failure if involved in a wreck. (This type of generality is retarded)
I actually wasn’t referring to cracking due to crashing at all…which is why I didn’t mention anything in the original posting. I understand if a bike is in a crash there is a possibility of damage no matter what it’s made of.
People asked where I saw cracked frames as if they had never heard of carbon frames having issues…I was just providing a reference point for those comments.
I like carbon which would explain why I bought one.
Looks like Titanium really is the only viable option for a true Tri bike that is not carbon and provide a premium performance compared to something like Aluminum.
Where is this coming from? I have yet to see a Titanium frame that will give you ‘premium performance’ over a Cervelo P3 aluminum or a Trek Speed Concept aluminum frame, Probably even the Cervelo P1 too.
sorry, I wasn’t comparing it to every single Al frame ever made.
Someone had made the comment about aerodynamics/performance being one of the influencing factors in carbon’s increasing use.