Yep, I know two guys who did. Great swimmers, strong cyclists, decent runners but more importantly they race smart. Could they BQ? Probably if they worked on it for a year or two as they are only 20 or so minutes from the cut off for their AG.
Depends a bit on which AG and what they need for a BQ. For example, a younger guy might need a 3:10 to BQ, which he maybe can’t run in a stand-alone marathon, but if he’s a decent IM runner, he might be able to pull off a KQ with a 3:30-3:40 with a fast bike. Obviously, the faster your bike split, the less fast you have to run. I know a guy in M40-44 who can do a 4:25 bike split, but I don’t think he can crack 4 hours in the IM marathon, and I know he has made it to Kona that way at least once. That’s a bit of an unusual scenario though, and I would say it is far more common for someone to be more balanced across the disciplines. Take a look at the top times for any IM and I think that’s what you will mostly see.
The title of the thread says KQ without the ability to BQ. Lets call it a “fair” course with splits of:
60 / 5:00 / 3:30 leading to a 9:30 for the last KQ spot in the 40-44 AG. What is the fastest a 3:16 marathoner would run in a “fair” IM course? 3:45? Maybe 3:40? I don’t really see a 60 / 4:50 / 3:40 combo as that bizarre. So I guess I agree with you.
You know that a stand-alone marathon and a marathon run in an Ironman, are VERY different things? About the only thing that they share in common are they are 26.2 miles in length!
There is a misconception among many AG triathletes that you have to run a great stand-alone marathon to run strongly in an Ironman - this is false, as I hinted at. This is why many, mistakenly put a marathon in their training for an Ironman. It’s not completely wrong, but it’s way from optimal!
Having genuine good marathon run fitness in your back pocket in the form of being able to qualify for Boston in the past, is a good thing, but that is only part of the puzzle that is a good run in an Ironman.
The Ironman run is about limiting damage, not about running fast.
This means that a strong swim-bike athlete with a slow run can qualify.
(I have seen a guy with a 3:10 marathon time run 3:25 at Kona).
The key to “limiting damage” when you have a slow run is to be especially well prepared and execute especially well.
A fast runner might mess up pacing and nutrition, or lack training mileage, and still qualify.
A slow runner cannot committ any of these errors.
You know that a stand-alone marathon and a marathon run in an Ironman, are VERY different things? About the only thing that they share in common are they are 26.2 miles in length!
There is a misconception among many AG triathletes that you have to run a great stand-alone marathon to run strongly in an Ironman - this is false, as I hinted at. This is why many, mistakenly put a marathon in their training for an Ironman. It’s not completely wrong, but it’s way from optimal!
Having genuine good marathon run fitness in your back pocket in the form of being able to qualify for Boston in the past, is a good thing, but that is only part of the puzzle that is a good run in an Ironman.
^^^THIS^^^
I had a friend tell me that I wasn’t as good at running as a mutual friend of ours. I flipped out. The guy can run a fast half mary, an okay marathon but can’t come close to my IM split. People just don’t get it. Stand alone running has little to nothing to do with triathlon running; especially Ironman running.
I KQ at my first IM and never having run an open marathon ever. (Although it went 7 deep in my AG that year at IM CA)
I KQ 3 times before ever attempting an open marathon.
I have BQ multiple times since but it is possible.
So although probably not very common it can happen.
Yeah running a stand alone marathon and an IM marathon are kinda different, but only kinda. They are both 26.2 miles and with both you are trying to get to the finish line as fast as possible while keeping an even steady pacing strategy for AG’ers.
Most stand alone marathon courses are “harder” than IM courses at least the IM courses I’ve seen.
If you can run a 3:15 stand alone marathon or under, with proper training you should be able to run at or under a 3:30 IM marathon.
But just because you can run a 3:30 IM marathon doesn’t mean you can run a 3:15 stand alone marathon
Stand alone running has little to nothing to do with triathlon running; especially Ironman running.
No sarcasm here, I’ve been trying to find out what seems to work for people to make that off the bike running since my IM times seem to be well off my standalone times (given a .69IF and .72IF bike in my only two IM’s). I’d love to hear insight from people who know what the F they are doing, since I feel like I clearly do not.
Stand alone running has little to nothing to do with triathlon running; especially Ironman running.
No sarcasm here, I’ve been trying to find out what seems to work for people to make that off the bike running since my IM times seem to be well off my standalone times (given a .69IF and .72IF bike in my only two IM’s). I’d love to hear insight from people who know what the F they are doing, since I feel like I clearly do not.
“He wanted to impart some of the truths Bruce Denton had taught him, that you dont’ become a runner by winning a morning workout. The only true way is to marshal the ferocity of your ambition over the course of many days, weeks, months, and (if you could finally come to accept it) years. The Trial of Miles; Miles of Trials. How could he make them understand?”
― John L. Parker Jr.
Sorry, I love that quote…from “once a runner”
Basically if you Eff-up execution in a marathon the last 10 km will drift by maybe 5-10 minutes or so, at IM it is more like 45 plus (way plus for some) minutes. The thing about “…to marshal the ferocity of your ambition” is about the bike, I tend to argue that it is also about the first 10km of the run as well.
An interesting topic…I can only add my personal (admittedly rather limited) experiences.
Coming from a cycling background, I have struggled with the run since I came into tri’s (5 years ago). Did IMWI (45-49 AG) last year and fell apart on the run, but that was because I forgot my Garmin on my bike QR and started out WAY too fast. Yes, I am an idiot.
Anyway, there was no chance of me KQing and even if I had run at my fastest goal pace, I would have just been tickling the top 10 in my age group (slightly under 11 hours).
Got into te Chicago Marathon this year via te lottery. Only been running this year and my VDOT is 46. based on Daniel’s VDOT charts, I should be able to run ~3:25ish. (So far, his chart has been pretty spot-on for my races…was only +30" off the charts estimate for a recent half and it was brutally ot that day). If the charts held true for Chicago, I would easily qualify for Boston. Since I would be 50+ for Boston, my time only needs to be sub 3:30.
I really have no shot at KQ’ing anytime soon, but it seems I would have a decent shot at BQ’ing (now unfortunately I just developed High Hamstring Tendinopathy, so even running Chicago is in question right now). So from my perspective, being able to KQ w/o being able to BQ seems very odd to me, but I am also sure it is a different story for the younger AG’s.
Yes, but your margin or error is pretty thin. You’re looking at maybe a 3:30-3:40 near perfect execution run. So you’ll need to be a fast swimmer (gain 5 minutes there) and 15-20 minute faster cyclist than all the others in the top 4-5.
I give you one example. Adam Zucco, IMAZ 2014. He’s had some struggles on the run lately, but as typical, was the 1st amateur off the bike and he still needed a roll-down.
If I had biked 5 minutes faster which I easily could now and swam 1 minute faster, I could have given up 15 minutes on the run and just barely qualified with a 3:35 run. I have on athlete I’m coaching now might struggle to run 3:10 to qualify for Boston but I think can squeeze out a 3:30 and KQ…by the skin of his teeth. But he’s a fast cyclist and descent swimmer.
also remember when people do their stand alone marathon its likely scheduled for perfect weather around 45 degrees or something, then ironman could easily be 75 -95, i did a 2:54 marathon and have only been able to do a 3:36 ironman run, 2 were in mid 90s louisville though, a 3:30 ironman run a lot of people dont realize is big time for an age grouper, youre either a very good runner or can be above average runner and perfectly paced the bike and early run, that is hard though, ive messed up all four of my ironmans
.
I agree with you, but I wasn’t asking for myself.
I also agree with other posters that it is possible, but probably a pretty small group of KQers that could not also BQ.
Many of is are simply triathletes, not marathoners.
My thought is, for most amateurs, a good IM marathon is 15-30 min slower than a stand alone marathon, with both races under “optimal” conditions.
