simply through meeting people across the country is that there’s no nexus i can find between good/bad people and left/right people. for every bad republican i can find you an eric schneiderman or a harvey weinstein. i can’t find any evidence of a lack of character, or honor, in anyone who chooses to believe differently than i believe.
but there is one thing that is just inexplicable to me, and that is how republicans countenance the science denialism of the trump administration. i am prepared to concede that on some issues, like GMO labeling or the anti-vaxxers, democrats’ denialism is on par. except that over the last 5 years the anti-vaxxer advocacy has moved from bipartisan to predominantly right wing (even the idiot wing of the democrats are at last persuaded by medicine and science).
can you good people explain to me how we run a country, make policy, plan for the future, make progress, when eschewing science (while pretending not to) is a political lodestar?
Let’s take an issue like Autism. Your kid has it. How did they get it because their siblings are fine and your child showed no signs of problems until after being vaccinated. What is your scientific answer to the reason why your one child has Autism and the others don’t?
I think that science-denialism is more a result of political populism (which Trump revels in) rather than a left/right issue. It doesn’t seem confined to the US currently either.
I watched an interview with Tony Blair recently and I generally agree with his take on the subject. To paraphrase: Populism offers a feel-good, short-term, lift to the masses that feel disenfranchised by “the elite” (whoever that may be – scientists, the rich, the political establishment, etc.), but shortly runs its course because it offers no real solutions to the problems that it promises to fix.
I predict that in a, say, 4-year time frame, the pendulum will swing the other way and rationality will be en vogue again.
Your child has downs syndrome and your others don’t?
Your sibling has ALS?
Your mother and sister have breast cancer you don’t?
It is beyond asinine to simply go “they have it, I dont. The only variable was vaccinations so that must be it”
Short of both genetic screening AND being able to completely understand every aspect of genetic variation individual to individual it’s simply not possible to explain all these things at present.
20 years ago breast cancer was considered a single disease with single chemo protocols and no one really understood why some on the same protocol died quickly and other survived
Now we know its in fact 15 plus diseases and some have more in common with prostate than they do with any other type of breast cancer
We will - and I said this here years ago - in the future be treating cancers by genetic sub type not by region of body
So autism is a bit like that. What we know it isn’t, is that it’s not a result of the mmr vaccine
Though it turns out the one upside of making that claim is the struck off physician got to hook up with a super model. So he’s got that going for him
Let’s take an issue like Autism. Your kid has it. How did they get it because their siblings are fine and your child showed no signs of problems until after being vaccinated. What is your scientific answer to the reason why your one child has Autism and the others don’t?
what is my scientific answer? science. the deployment of science against myth. but this only works for those for whom science is a tool. and of course everyone does accept this. except, inexplicably, in a single area. like climate science, or vaccinations.
google water flouridation. that was the conspiracy theory of my childhood.
Let’s take an issue like Autism. Your kid has it. How did they get it because their siblings are fine and your child showed no signs of problems until after being vaccinated. What is your scientific answer to the reason why your one child has Autism and the others don’t?
what is my scientific answer? science. the deployment of science against myth. but this only works for those for whom science is a tool. and of course everyone does accept this. except, inexplicably, in a single area. like climate science, or vaccinations.
google water flouridation. that was the conspiracy theory of my childhood.
You were wondering why…I think the answer is that science doesn’t have an provable answer for all of earth’s questions. And some people NEED answers or something/someone to blame…BTW are you sure fluoride is not destroying our precious bodily fluids?
“One of the most common questions asked after a diagnosis of autism, is what caused the disorder.
We know that there’s no one cause of autism. Research suggests that autism develops from a combination of genetic and nongenetic, or environmental, influences.”
Quite simply we elected Trump. He has now reached the stage as our Dear Leader where all products of his executive branch are his products, his beliefs, his way, his idea, his speak and his mindset. There is no room for contrary word or actions. He is the denier in chief–full stop! It does not pay to upset the Child King. (see the USS McCain incident)
Now how he found his beliefs on climate? I would lay blame to his core belief on America as first – that a buck is lost, stolen or not earned–that we lose standing financially if we were to stand on the higher ground of science. He knows in his gut, that others are cheating at the game of controlling climate. Cheating is his game and he will not be beat at it. Oh, there is the thing too that it is all about him and he will be dead before the impact hits.
But then I am inflicted with TDS. So for the ball washers, sorry!
Science denialism is older than Trump and older than Republican(ism). Science often challenges our beliefs about how things are and how things work - and folks don’t like to be challenged.
Even scientists don’t like to be challenged - and scientists are not immune to holding wierd and unsubstaniated beliefs.
And ‘Science’ does not address big questions like ‘value’, and ‘why’.
And scientists are often quite snooty and pretentious.
And science is a moving target - what is ‘consensus’ is subject to modification.
Having said the above I can’t really answer your questions. Science is still the most reliable and consistant method for making predictions re big issues like climate change, immunizations, etc.
Quite simply we elected Trump. He has now reached the stage as our Dear Leader where all products of his executive branch are his products, his beliefs, his way, his idea, his speak and his mindset. There is no room for contrary word or actions. He is the denier in chief–full stop! It does not pay to upset the Child King. (see the USS McCain incident)
Now how he found his beliefs on climate? I would lay blame to his core belief on America as first – that a buck is lost, stolen or not earned–that we lose standing financially if we were to stand on the higher ground of science. He knows in his gut, that others are cheating at the game of controlling climate. Cheating is his game and he will not be beat at it. Oh, there is the thing too that it is all about him and he will be dead before the impact hits.
But then I am inflicted with TDS. So for the ball washers, sorry!
FYI the idea that autism was caused by a vaccine started with… Billy Clinton’s administration.
“A 1998 study falsely linked MMR vaccine and autism. The paper was retracted and its author lost his medical license, but the idea stuck.”
Anti-scienism is about not wanting to be told what to or or what to believe. Simple as that.
If you want to say whatever you want, or believe whatever nonsense suits you, irrespective of whether you have a basis for saying it, science gets in the way of that impulse.
If you grew up having trouble understanding relatively complex concepts, and not understanding the science behind them, it’s not unnatural to embrace the idea that you can reject science in favour of your gut.
The oddity is when ostensibly clever people run to anti-scientism. I think they do so because they know it is an easy way to gain popular support for whatever other ideas they want to push.
None of this is helped by the internet. The internet has become a forum where anyone can post a lunatic idea in typed words that look little different to a page produced by a reputable source. And sure as eggs are eggs, no matter how much adverse comment that lunatic idea gets, it will find some support from some people. The author of the lunatic idea tunes out everything except the agreement - because they are no less loony than their idea.
Let’s take an issue like Autism. Your kid has it. How did they get it because their siblings are fine and your child showed no signs of problems until after being vaccinated. What is your scientific answer to the reason why your one child has Autism and the others don’t?
what is my scientific answer? science. the deployment of science against myth. but this only works for those for whom science is a tool. and of course everyone does accept this. except, inexplicably, in a single area. like climate science, or vaccinations.
google water flouridation. that was the conspiracy theory of my childhood.
You were wondering why…I think the answer is that science doesn’t have an provable answer for all of earth’s questions. And some people NEED answers or something/someone to blame…BTW are you sure fluoride is not destroying our precious bodily fluids?
“One of the most common questions asked after a diagnosis of autism, is what caused the disorder. We know that there’s no one cause of autism. Research suggests that autism develops from a combination of genetic and nongenetic, or environmental, influences.”
i’m certain that science doesn’t have a provable answer for all that ails us. but science is the tool that’s lifted us. i don’t mind if someone chooses to discard science. i also don’t mind calibrating our faith in science to the state of science in a particular topic, if the science is just spotty, inconclusive, without a clear consensus. what i mind is the selective use of good science. science is your guide or it’s not.
and that’s for christians too, by the way. miracles aren’t at odds with science. a miracle is a rare and temporary suspension of science. god causes the rain to fall (on the just and the unjust alike). but the prudent christian farmer doesn’t plant crops in a desert.
I agree with you, but you were asking why others weren’t on board with scientific methodology. Maybe it was more of a rhetorical question…Live long and prosper.
The oddity is when ostensibly clever people run to anti-scientism. I think they do so because they know it is an easy way to gain popular support for whatever other ideas they want to push.
do you remember bill frist? republican senate majority leader back 12 or 15 years ago. also a heart-lung transplant doctor.
i remember him on bill maher. i take maher over frist, politically, about 80 percent of the time. but frist was on maher’s show, and the subject was anti-fax. and frist was the adult. the normal person. and maher the freak-out conspiracy theorist. and as was pointed out by somebody a couple of posts up, anti-fax stuff was at least inter-partisan if not primarily a left-wing nut theory.
i’d like to see what maher has to say now. because, what i say to my trumpist friends i say to maher as well: be consistent. if you won’t want to be told what to do, and that’s why you’re a science denier, then fine. but then don’t subscribe to your oncologist’s chemotherapy recommendation.
Quite simply we elected Trump. He has now reached the stage as our Dear Leader where all products of his executive branch are his products, his beliefs, his way, his idea, his speak and his mindset. There is no room for contrary word or actions. He is the denier in chief–full stop! It does not pay to upset the Child King. (see the USS McCain incident)
Now how he found his beliefs on climate? I would lay blame to his core belief on America as first – that a buck is lost, stolen or not earned–that we lose standing financially if we were to stand on the higher ground of science. He knows in his gut, that others are cheating at the game of controlling climate. Cheating is his game and he will not be beat at it. Oh, there is the thing too that it is all about him and he will be dead before the impact hits.
But then I am inflicted with TDS. So for the ball washers, sorry!
FYI the idea that autism was caused by a vaccine started with… Billy Clinton’s administration.
“A 1998 study falsely linked MMR vaccine and autism. The paper was retracted and its author lost his medical license, but the idea stuck.”
Okay? And your point is? Clinton-- Dem-- Left goes with a science lead and it then science is found lacking. I sure do hope that Trump is right on this one. Fire up the coal plants boys. Autism science proves climate science is bogus.
I agree with you, but you were asking why others weren’t on board with scientific methodology. Maybe it was more of a rhetorical question…Live long and prosper.
i guess what my question really is, is this: it seems like one’s attachment to trump can be so strong as to cause someone to become a science denier. there seems a strong nexus between trumpism and science denialism. is that so? or if you’re a trumpist, were you already a science denier? or, if you’re a trumpist but you’re not a science denier, do you consider his science denialism an unimportant detail?
Quite simply we elected Trump. He has now reached the stage as our Dear Leader where all products of his executive branch are his products, his beliefs, his way, his idea, his speak and his mindset. There is no room for contrary word or actions. He is the denier in chief–full stop! It does not pay to upset the Child King. (see the USS McCain incident)
Now how he found his beliefs on climate? I would lay blame to his core belief on America as first – that a buck is lost, stolen or not earned–that we lose standing financially if we were to stand on the higher ground of science. He knows in his gut, that others are cheating at the game of controlling climate. Cheating is his game and he will not be beat at it. Oh, there is the thing too that it is all about him and he will be dead before the impact hits.
But then I am inflicted with TDS. So for the ball washers, sorry!
FYI the idea that autism was caused by a vaccine started with… Billy Clinton’s administration.
“A 1998 study falsely linked MMR vaccine and autism. The paper was retracted and its author lost his medical license, but the idea stuck.”
Okay? And your point is? Clinton-- Dem-- Left goes with a science lead and it then science is found lacking. I sure do hope that Trump is right on this one. Fire up the coal plants boys. Autism science proves climate science is bogus.
My point was simply that insanity can happen under any administration and it usually does. And insanity usually follows a money trail.
Because denialism has no personal cost, and loosely connecting with your tribe has benefits. Most “denialists” aren’t, yet countenance being loosely affiliated with strong deniers as politically expedient. Take the birther movement. Over 40% of teh GOP was birther at some point, and it cost them nothing to pretend that Obama could be a Kenyan Muslim. If you bet most of them 10K on the question, support would have evaporated. Place an actual cost on hypothetical views, and there would be far fewer folks willing to give pass to nutty ideas.
You’re kind of all over the map on this one. For starters, the Pacific Northwest, which is known for being liberal, is fighting a measles outbreaks due to antivaxers. This is hardly a partisan issue.
Second, climate change is a hot mess. Even if we assume 100% of climate change is due to mankind, what is the solution? Green New Deal? Hard core environmentalist don’t want hydroelectric dams, windmills, or solar farms so you know nuclear is off the table. Also, there is so much science has not told us, and yet people will not stop making outlandish and unproven climate claims. Are those people really practicing science?
Got it. Following the money or using money and greed as a motivator for pursuing denial of science at least temporarily until such time that there is money to be had in reversing course and accepting the science makes sense. It’s all about the Benjamins baby.