Can you alter the heel drop on a running shoe

Triathlon Forum
1

I’m sure it’s a daft question and every experienced runner knows exactly what heel drop they should be looking for in a running/race shoe. But I thought I would ask.

I have run in every imaginable shoe and recently bought an “almost” super shoe (complete with carbon bits). It has a quite a pronounced heel drop (8mm). I understand there are shoes out there with higher drops and obviously there are lower drops all the way to barefoot and all come with rave reviews from someone,

Without buying them all, how can you experiment with heel drop to see what works. Can you, in fact, change heel drop with inserts etc. My usual trick is to cut up old liners and stick them under the full liner ( for arch support etc).

Has anyone actually done a study or have an evidence based system.

Or got any favourite ways to “Macgyver” their shoes.

Fire away

2

I know there is a study that look at people habituated to 0mm drop shoes. They looked at 4 different drops 0,12 and iirc the other two drops were 4 and 8. Oddly the 12mm drop shoes were the 0mm drop crowd’s favorite drop shoe. All shoes had the same midsole material and upper with the only difference being the drop and it was a crossover design.

You could stick in heel lifts to increase the drop. In my experience over the last 5-6 years most mortal runners can’t tell a difference in drop until it’s about 4-5mm and most world class runners can’t tell a difference in drop unless it’s >2mm. ie you could stick a 10mm or 8mm shoe on them and they’d shrug their shoulders as to which has more drop.

8mm drop isn’t really pronounced imo, most standard really.

My advice to tons of runners and triathletes is try on a bunch of shoes, don’t worry about the drop, in fact ask not to be told the drop, and choose the shoe that feels the best to you.

3

Or as Mizuno put it circa 2012:

Worry about miles, not millimeters.

4

easy to increase the drop, not so easy to reduce…

I like Altras in many ways but I can’t run in a 0 drop shoe, calf muscles will tighten up to severely painful effect within a few miles. So as DD says, a Dr Scholls heel lift of 2-3mm goes in the shoe, then it works great for me.

Can’t think of any way to reduce easily, maybe take out the liner ?

Anyway to experiment get some Altras, could get up to 6-8mm fairly easily I think. Honestly I don’t notice drop much after it gets over 2mm. My Saucony Endorphin Speeds are 8mm and I notice those shoes, but it might not be the drop I’m feeling but the whole speed shoe construction.

5

Are you suggesting circumnavigating 40mm max stack height with Tom Cruise style lifter inserts? …Diabolical you!😈

6

Yeah…but don’t Tom run nice…

7

I would guess that all barefoot and zero drop runners would run on their forefoot. The higher drop shoe that I bought almost pushes the runner into a forefoot style of run. So it could make sense that zero drop people would prefer a shoe that got them there easily. I have hesitated adding to the heel (with an insert) as I assumed the foam composition of the shoe would be adversely affected by shoving stuff in.

As I live in winter wonderland Canada I have not run outside in a long while, snow and ice no longer hold any fascination when running. But we had a weird warm day today and took the super (ish) shoe outside and did notice the stride length showing on the Garmin had increased over anything the treadmill shows. So that might be part of the equation to see if adding or subtracting drop, adds or detracts from stride length. I’m easily amused.

As an aside, trying on shoes to see what’s comfortable has resulted in many comfortable “clogs” To bad most running shops don’t have a treadmill (although I’ll bet there are some)…:0)

8

I would guess that all barefoot and zero drop runners would run on their forefoot. The higher drop shoe that I bought almost pushes the runner into a forefoot style of run. So it could make sense that zero drop people would prefer a shoe that got them there easily. I have hesitated adding to the heel (with an insert) as I assumed the foam composition of the shoe would be adversely affected by shoving stuff in.

As I live in winter wonderland Canada I have not run outside in a long while, snow and ice no longer hold any fascination when running. But we had a weird warm day today and took the super (ish) shoe outside and did notice the stride length showing on the Garmin had increased over anything the treadmill shows. So that might be part of the equation to see if adding or subtracting drop, adds or detracts from stride length. I’m easily amused.

As an aside, trying on shoes to see what’s comfortable has resulted in many comfortable “clogs” To bad most running shops don’t have a treadmill (although I’ll bet there are some)…:0)

What did the stop watch say? How did you feel? Those 2 things tell you everything you need to know or at least most everything.

I see plenty of altra runners landing on their heel just like I see Ghost or wave rider runners (both 12mm drop) landing on their forefoot. Shoes are not going to magically change where you land.

You’re not going to change the way the foam compresses by adding a lift. You still weigh xx kg and are landing with X newtons of force compressing the foam

9

easy to increase the drop, not so easy to reduce…

Easier on you, or easier on the shoes?

Reducing the drop on the show is pretty easy from what I’d seen on YouTube from minimalist trail runners

  • Get a store-bought or factory-supplied shoe
  • separate the outsole from the midsole
  • hack away
  • GorillaGlue it back up
  • take it out for a spin

Repeat as necessary

I also want to thank you and your autocorrect for NOT using “altar”

10

I would guess that all barefoot and zero drop runners would run on their forefoot. The higher drop shoe that I bought almost pushes the runner into a forefoot style of run. So it could make sense that zero drop people would prefer a shoe that got them there easily. I have hesitated adding to the heel (with an insert) as I assumed the foam composition of the shoe would be adversely affected by shoving stuff in.

As I live in winter wonderland Canada I have not run outside in a long while, snow and ice no longer hold any fascination when running. But we had a weird warm day today and took the super (ish) shoe outside and did notice the stride length showing on the Garmin had increased over anything the treadmill shows. So that might be part of the equation to see if adding or subtracting drop, adds or detracts from stride length. I’m easily amused.

As an aside, trying on shoes to see what’s comfortable has resulted in many comfortable “clogs” To bad most running shops don’t have a treadmill (although I’ll bet there are some)…:0)

What did the stop watch say? How did you feel? Those 2 things tell you everything you need to know or at least most everything.

I see plenty of altra runners landing on their heel just like I see Ghost or wave rider runners (both 12mm drop) landing on their forefoot. Shoes are not going to magically change where you land.

You’re not going to change the way the foam compresses by adding a lift. You still weigh xx kg and are landing with X newtons of force compressing the foam

The stop watch in my case is more like a grandfather clock. And to be honest I have no particular notions to ever get faster or even recover any speed I might have once had. But I was curious for a number of reasons. My purchase of the super shoe was simply because they had last years model on sale for under a $100 (Canadian ones at that). There are a stunning number of carbon super shoes all claiming to be wonderful except all the records (correct me if I’m wrong) seem to have been set on one shoe (not the one I bought). At the last Kona there were some amazing times (considering the bike and swim times) that were achieved on, now illegal, shoes. So I thought why not and they’re a pretty colour. I did of course have to mess with them a bit to accommodate my feet.

It beggars belief that the best runners up to marathon distance are not on personalized shoes. That Nike haven’t tested and changed their shoes to accommodate Kipchoge or any of the other 2:0hr guys just doesn’t make sense. It’s their exploits that sell the brand and Nike spends millions on materials and models.

We don’t think twice about the sprinters in their made to measure shoes yet there’s nary a whisper about it for distance runners. On my little foray outside, the change in stride length was just under 0.10 M, according to Garmin. Considering the average 3 hour marathon runner (I’m way slower) takes 30,000 steps, 0.10m would represent a gain of 3km for the same number of steps. That’s better than a 12 minute gain. Now my 0.10m gain may be an anomaly, but I do wonder what a truly personalized shoe would produce. We go on endlessly here, about bike gear saving a few watts and gaining a minute or three, including bike shoes at ridiculous costs per minute gained. But I see almost nothing about gains from running shoes. And they are cheap compared to everything else we spend money on.

That’s why I asked the question and my suspicions were confirmed to some extent. Most of us just like the toys…:0)

11

I really like Altra shoes, but the ones I like don’t always go on sale, so I buy other kinds occasionally. I don’t generally care about 0-4mm drop but by the time I get to 8mm I really don’t like it. I just cut the insole so that the front ends behind the ball of my foot and my heel is just sitting in the shoe. That gets me about 4mm and I’m pretty comfortable with that.
It works better if you have a lot of toe volume and you can just add stack under the forefoot and still use the original insole, but most don’t accommodate that.
I cut up or grind the edge of the insole to smooth out the transition from insole to no insole and then just get used to it.
I have some heel RISE in my current long run shoe, the Olympus because I put some gel pads under on of my toe joints that always gets a stinger if I walk about in work shoes too much (a lot of cement and hard surfaces at the schools where I work).

12

We don’t think twice about the sprinters in their made to measure shoes yet there’s nary a whisper about it for distance runners. On my little foray outside, the change in stride length was just under 0.10 M, according to Garmin. Considering the average 3 hour marathon runner (I’m way slower) takes 30,000 steps, 0.10m would represent a gain of 3km for the same number of steps. That’s better than a 12 minute gain. Now my 0.10m gain may be an anomaly, but I do wonder what a truly personalized shoe would produce. We go on endlessly here, about bike gear saving a few watts and gaining a minute or three, including bike shoes at ridiculous costs per minute gained. But I see almost nothing about gains from running shoes. And they are cheap compared to everything else we spend money on.

That’s why I asked the question and my suspicions were confirmed to some extent. Most of us just like the toys…:0)

There was some research recently released that showed the super shoes had only as much as a 2.5% increase in running economy at 12kmh and the avg was iirc 1.5% and for the 10kmh group it was .9% avg increase with 5 subject showing a decrease in running economy in super shoes.

it’s theorized that mere mortal runners can not compress the foam enough nor compress the plate enough to benefit from them like a world class runner. As I think about this from my experience helping a ton of runners get into shoes, I think the shoes like vapor fly 5 or endorphin pro 3 may be a better bet for mere mortal runners.

Not as stiff as a plate and often different foam layup. Now have consulted with athletes that had a :15/mile drop in time for a marathon in super shoes? yes. I’ve also seen a ton of PBs and a ton of more mortal runners prefer the endorphin pro’s to endorphin speeds. Again I think it comes down to trying on the super shoe on the L foot the more mortal shoe on the Rt foot (or switch them for all I care) and see which one feels better as you run around the store.

ie vapor fly 5 vs next %2 or 3 or endorphin pro 3 vs Speed 3

also i think looking at the Asics line up is a good idea as they have tuned their shoes to really fast and another shoe for more mortal speeds.

13

We don’t think twice about the sprinters in their made to measure shoes yet there’s nary a whisper about it for distance runners. On my little foray outside, the change in stride length was just under 0.10 M, according to Garmin. Considering the average 3 hour marathon runner (I’m way slower) takes 30,000 steps, 0.10m would represent a gain of 3km for the same number of steps. That’s better than a 12 minute gain. Now my 0.10m gain may be an anomaly, but I do wonder what a truly personalized shoe would produce. We go on endlessly here, about bike gear saving a few watts and gaining a minute or three, including bike shoes at ridiculous costs per minute gained. But I see almost nothing about gains from running shoes. And they are cheap compared to everything else we spend money on.

That’s why I asked the question and my suspicions were confirmed to some extent. Most of us just like the toys…:0)

There was some research recently released that showed the super shoes had only as much as a 2.5% increase in running economy at 12kmh and the avg was iirc 1.5% and for the 10kmh group it was .9% avg increase with 5 subject showing a decrease in running economy in super shoes.

it’s theorized that mere mortal runners can not compress the foam enough nor compress the plate enough to benefit from them like a world class runner. As I think about this from my experience helping a ton of runners get into shoes, I think the shoes like vapor fly 5 or endorphin pro 3 may be a better bet for mere mortal runners.

Not as stiff as a plate and often different foam layup. Now have consulted with athletes that had a :15/mile drop in time for a marathon in super shoes? yes. I’ve also seen a ton of PBs and a ton of more mortal runners prefer the endorphin pro’s to endorphin speeds. Again I think it comes down to trying on the super shoe on the L foot the more mortal shoe on the Rt foot (or switch them for all I care) and see which one feels better as you run around the store.

ie vapor fly 5 vs next %2 or 3 or endorphin pro 3 vs Speed 3

also i think looking at the Asics line up is a good idea as they have tuned their shoes to really fast and another shoe for more mortal speeds.
I agree 100% and the only super shoe I find a noticeable advantage in was the original 4% at speeds around 4’/km or faster that works in with me being a heal striker and the 10mm drop. Albeit I think having no losses or a slight advantage due to the responsiveness on such soft shoes is the biggest advantage of super shoes and real time gains are made especially over the back end of an IM with the legs less beaten up. The 4% was not enjoyable for me in an IM so they are 70.3 or shorter race shoe for me.

What I have found an interesting shoe to run in is the new Mizuno Wave Rebellion Pro with the lack of heal and what it does to my running as a heal striker. It is unlike any shoe I have ever run in and I am still trying to work out what distance and pace is best for me and if to bring it in as a race shoe but as mentioned by one of the testers here my HR is lower for perceived effort and pace in this shoe. The only other shoe I found that in was the Newton and the lugs in them ended up ruining my metatarsals but I believe due to the same rocker effect be it further up the shoe???

Road Trail Run: Mizuno Wave Rebellion Pro Multi Tester Review: Radical Looking! Radically Fast and Fun! 10 Comparisons

14

There was some research recently released that showed the super shoes had only as much as a 2.5% increase in running economy at 12kmh and the avg was iirc 1.5% and for the 10kmh group it was .9% avg increase with 5 subject showing a decrease in running economy in super shoes.

it’s theorized that mere mortal runners can not compress the foam enough nor compress the plate enough to benefit from them like a world class runner. As I think about this from my experience helping a ton of runners get into shoes, I think the shoes like vapor fly 5 or endorphin pro 3 may be a better bet for mere mortal runners.

Not as stiff as a plate and often different foam layup. Now have consulted with athletes that had a :15/mile drop in time for a marathon in super shoes? yes. I’ve also seen a ton of PBs and a ton of more mortal runners prefer the endorphin pro’s to endorphin speeds. Again I think it comes down to trying on the super shoe on the L foot the more mortal shoe on the Rt foot (or switch them for all I care) and see which one feels better as you run around the store.

ie vapor fly 5 vs next %2 or 3 or endorphin pro 3 vs Speed 3

also i think looking at the Asics line up is a good idea as they have tuned their shoes to really fast and another shoe for more mortal speeds.

You might be right. Although I wondered about the difference in weight, I had a different take. Heavier runners would compress the shoe perhaps just as much but lose on the rebound. Kipchoge weighs 52kg and I go a svelte 80kg. Putting sport car springs on a truck ,might be a better analogy. They’ll compress just fine, but the spring back …meh.

The Asics shoe you described is the Metaspeed Sky and Edge designed for forefoot runners and midfoot runners. The shoe I bought by the way was a Puma Deviate Nitro (2022 version) which some not so speedy runners seemed to like. So far no blisters.

edited…I weigh 80kg not 180…:0)

15

…
What I have found an interesting shoe to run in is the new Mizuno Wave Rebellion Pro with the lack of heal and what it does to my running as a heal striker. …

Another shoe that I really like but I’m getting disagreement with on the other runners on staff I work with is the Brooks Hyperion Max

16

Most “super shoes” are designed to land on the sweet spot between the heel and forefoot and have an extreme rocker from forefoot to tips of toes. They make your foot feel like are falling forward but not in the way of classic shoes with a higher heel drop. Anyway, most people don’t (and shouldn’t) land directly on the heel of these shoes making the drop almost insignificant unless you’re running down a steep hill. Have someone video you running in the shoe and to see where your feet are landing. I tell my patients and customers if the shoes are quiet when running then you and the shoes like each other.

The man who started Altra worked at (owned?) a running store and would delaminate the outsole under the heel with a heat gun and grind off some of the midsole to create a level drop. He would then re-glue the outside using contact cement. Someone from the shoe industry found out he was doing this then started Altra.

Altra = your feet do the work
Super Shoes = the shoes do the work for you