Cam Wurf: 6 min bike power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W

Triathlon Forum
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In another thread which many of you may have not read, Cam Wurf came on the forum and answered some questions related to his 2 hour power, 20 min power and then he gave details on his 5 min power and also what he used to do when he was a competitive rower:

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Cjwurf
Jul 8, 18 2:29
Post #122 of 130 (159 views)
That’s really interesting, my PB on the rowing machine was 6:09 @ 70kg, not sure that in wattage? Perhaps you could let me know? My 20min power on the bike is 450± depending on form, guessing the power on the rower is lower than that as it’s much easier to produce power on a bike than a rowing machine but great question. Heart rate as a guage is probably more relevant, I’d AVE 190’s and top out at 205 on the rower, probably similar for a 20min all out effort on the tt bike

devashish_paul
Jul 8, 18 6:14
Post #125 of 130 (91 views)
Cjwurf wrote:
That’s really interesting, my PB on the rowing machine was 6:09 @ 70kg, not sure that in wattage? Perhaps you could let me know? My 20min power on the bike is 450± depending on form, guessing the power on the rower is lower than that as it’s much easier to produce power on a bike than a rowing machine but great question. Heart rate as a guage is probably more relevant, I’d AVE 190’s and top out at 205 on the rower, probably similar for a 20min all out effort on the tt bike

Cam your 6:09 translates to 450W. I would assume on the bike (let’s say if you hammer up the first part of the Col d’Eze outside Nice), you would easily hold over 500W for 6 minutes based on some of the numbers you say you can hold for 2 hours, but I could be wrong. I would be really interested in seeing what you could do in a 4000m pursuit on the track too!

What I find interestinig about this discussion is how 4-5 minute power correlates so well to 4+ hour performance. Well, I guess it is no surprise that someone like Wiggins can be a 4000m pursuit gold medalist and win 4+ hour TdF stages, or in your case, go from doubles or singles skulling to Kona bike course record holder. Thanks for the visibility. Do you use the erg at all for cross training any more?

Cjwurf
Jul 8, 18 10:27
Post #129 of 130 (52 views)
Haha that’s really interesting isn’t it. Your pretty spot on, my best 5min is 527watts and best 10min is 485 so I guess extrapolation of that is around 500ish for 6.

Guess it shows what I’ve always believed and that is rowing is an excellent measure of aerobic endurance and basically every energy system the body has at its disposal, really greatful for my background in the boat!

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An interesting interview with Cam:
https://youtu.be/g5H6kKUjOIo

.

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snip* *

Thanks a lot for posting this, I hadn’t seen it.

I really like the approach Wurf has - his blog is good, interviews are refreshing, and he’s really positive.

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Like many tri pros, his transparency is awesome. Interesting that his 6 min bike power is right near 7W per kilo. On the erg it is more like 6.5W per kilo.

This is what Cam said about his 20 min bike power on the Froome “not more liked” thread ~ 6.5W per kilo. No wonder he set the bike course record in Nice

That’s really interesting, my PB on the rowing machine was 6:09 @ 70kg, not sure that in wattage? Perhaps you could let me know? My 20min power on the bike is 450± depending on form, guessing the power on the rower is lower than that as it’s much easier to produce power on a bike than a rowing machine but great question. Heart rate as a guage is probably more relevant, I’d AVE 190’s and top out at 205 on the rower, probably similar for a 20min all out effort on the tt bike

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Like many tri pros, his transparency is awesome. Interesting that his 6 min bike power is right near 7W per kilo. On the erg it is more like 6.5W per kilo.

This is what Cam said about his 20 min bike power on the Froome “not more liked” thread ~ 6.5W per kilo. No wonder he set the bike course record in Nice

That’s really interesting, my PB on the rowing machine was 6:09 @ 70kg, not sure that in wattage? Perhaps you could let me know? My 20min power on the bike is 450± depending on form, guessing the power on the rower is lower than that as it’s much easier to produce power on a bike than a rowing machine but great question. Heart rate as a guage is probably more relevant, I’d AVE 190’s and top out at 205 on the rower, probably similar for a 20min all out effort on the tt bike

Yeah you already said that :smiley:

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I’d say that this is fairly consistent with what I’ve seen with other rower-cyclists as well as myself.

My own 2km PB was 6:18.3 - which translates to about 415w also at 70kg. My best 20min power is - so far - 402w, also at 70kg. And my very rough rule of thumb was always divide by 3. Basically, whatever power I could hold for Xmin on the erg, I should be able to hold that for 3x that on the bike. So, for practical terms, my 2km power = my 20min cycling power. My 6km power = my 60min cycling power.

In rowing, I stopped after college - which is how I found triathlon - and never really felt I achieved what I could have (should have…). I believed that 6:10-6:12 was eminently doable, and I’d say that’s likely born out by what I’d say I’ve seen in the years since.

On the cycling side, my current best 5min power is 490w or so at just over 70kg, but I expect to decimate that pretty handily over the next few months as I’m back to training specifically for this sort of effort getting ready for the pursuit. My target sustained power for Master’s World’s is 500-510, coming after the start, so that means being able to hold that power for 5min sustained effort. And that’s in the aerobars. Climbing power is virtually always easier to generate than aero power when you’re talking about that real top end.

It may have been toppled by some guy on zPower by now, but the overall Strava KOM for Keith Hill in Zwift is/was held by a German Olympic rower. Very similar power to Cam. I believe it’s ~9min @ 465w.

Don’t know how much erging he did, but Hamish Carter was quite an accomplished junior rower in New Zealand. Much better - early in his life - as a rower than as a triathlete. Probably would have kept rowing, I’d wager, if NZL had a better LWT program; they have great rowing, but it’s all heavyweights. And Hamish is just too small. Seems like it worked out okay for him tho…

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I’d say that this is fairly consistent with what I’ve seen with other rower-cyclists as well as myself.

My own 2km PB was 6:18.3 - which translates to about 415w also at 70kg. My best 20min power is - so far - 402w, also at 70kg. And my very rough rule of thumb was always divide by 3. Basically, whatever power I could hold for Xmin on the erg, I should be able to hold that for 3x that on the bike. So, for practical terms, my 2km power = my 20min cycling power. My 6km power = my 60min cycling power.

In rowing, I stopped after college - which is how I found triathlon - and never really felt I achieved what I could have (should have…). I believed that 6:10-6:12 was eminently doable, and I’d say that’s likely born out by what I’d say I’ve seen in the years since.

On the cycling side, my current best 5min power is 490w or so at just over 70kg, but I expect to decimate that pretty handily over the next few months as I’m back to training specifically for this sort of effort getting ready for the pursuit. My target sustained power for Master’s World’s is 500-510, coming after the start, so that means being able to hold that power for 5min sustained effort. And that’s in the aerobars. Climbing power is virtually always easier to generate than aero power when you’re talking about that real top end.

It may have been toppled by some guy on zPower by now, but the overall Strava KOM for Keith Hill in Zwift is/was held by a German Olympic rower. Very similar power to Cam. I believe it’s ~9min @ 465w.

Don’t know how much erging he did, but Hamish Carter was quite an accomplished junior rower in New Zealand. Much better - early in his life - as a rower than as a triathlete. Probably would have kept rowing, I’d wager, if NZL had a better LWT program; they have great rowing, but it’s all heavyweights. And Hamish is just too small. Seems like it worked out okay for him tho…

Jordan, thanks for the visibility into your erg times and equivalent power on the erg and translation factor to the bike. Thanks for your 3x rule of thumb…so my 20 min erg power ends up being my bike FTP assuming that the form to do that sport has been perfected which would be the case for athletes such as yourself, Cam or Hamish Carter. Seems for rowing you want your weight to be right on the lightweight limit or as heavy as possible. Thus Hamish would be in no man’s land perhaps being too small. You and Cam would be in the right range to give that sport a go.

Congrats on doing 7W per kilo for 5 min on the bike. Very impressive (…for an OLD guys LOL)…I can’t believe I called you an old guy. I remember when you posted on this Forum way back when when you out biked Tim DeBoom at Florida 70.3 as a neo pro!

Best of luck in the 4000m pursuit. What is your target time and which velodrome will this be on?

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It would be interesting to know what numbers Hamish Bond is putting out.
He is taking cycling seriously now and was obviously amazing in the rowing.

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4km @ Elite Nationals on Aug 5 at VELO in Carson, CA
3km @ Master’s World’s in early Oct also at VELO

Then thinking a shot at the 35-39 Master’s Hour next year early in the year at Aguascaliente. Inspired in no small part by seeing our very own MTM taking a shot at THE Hour Record shortly at Aguas…

I’m 37, so I’m in that weird 'tweener zone age wise. I wouldn’t say I’m “old” yet. But I’m definitely not young anymore…

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I think that in cycling you can be closer to producing power continuously. There is some fluctuation in the “dead spot” but you’re not going down to 0 and your cadence is 80-90.

In rowing your cadence is more like 30 and 50% of the time your are producing 0 watts. So to get 450 average, it’s like 900 watts for 1 second, 0 watts for 1 second, over and over again.

So I think it’s pretty normal for rowing power to be lower than cycling power.

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I’d say that this is fairly consistent with what I’ve seen with other rower-cyclists as well as myself.

My own 2km PB was 6:18.3 - which translates to about 415w also at 70kg. My best 20min power is - so far - 402w, also at 70kg. And my very rough rule of thumb was always divide by 3. Basically, whatever power I could hold for Xmin on the erg, I should be able to hold that for 3x that on the bike. So, for practical terms, my 2km power = my 20min cycling power. My 6km power = my 60min cycling power.

In rowing, I stopped after college - which is how I found triathlon - and never really felt I achieved what I could have (should have…). I believed that 6:10-6:12 was eminently doable, and I’d say that’s likely born out by what I’d say I’ve seen in the years since.

On the cycling side, my current best 5min power is 490w or so at just over 70kg, but I expect to decimate that pretty handily over the next few months as I’m back to training specifically for this sort of effort getting ready for the pursuit. My target sustained power for Master’s World’s is 500-510, coming after the start, so that means being able to hold that power for 5min sustained effort. And that’s in the aerobars. Climbing power is virtually always easier to generate than aero power when you’re talking about that real top end.

It may have been toppled by some guy on zPower by now, but the overall Strava KOM for Keith Hill in Zwift is/was held by a German Olympic rower. Very similar power to Cam. I believe it’s ~9min @ 465w.

Don’t know how much erging he did, but Hamish Carter was quite an accomplished junior rower in New Zealand. Much better - early in his life - as a rower than as a triathlete. Probably would have kept rowing, I’d wager, if NZL had a better LWT program; they have great rowing, but it’s all heavyweights. And Hamish is just too small. Seems like it worked out okay for him tho…

Hamish Bond, 2 x olympic gold medallist in coxless pair, and half of the most dominant rowing combo in recent times, has switched to cycling in the TT. You can see his power on strava etc. He got 3rd in Commonwealth Games TT.

He can do 18,443m in 60min on an erg according to wikipedia, which is 1.37 or so per 500m. So 6 min 28secs per 2000m average for one hour.

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It would be interesting to know what numbers Hamish Bond is putting out.
He is taking cycling seriously now and was obviously amazing in the rowing.

check his strava out. he posts numbers from his tt races.

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Out of curiosity what does rowing have to do with cycling?

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well, they mainly use your legs and in similar ways. mahe drysdale, olympic single sculls champ, has often substituted cycling for rowing due to injuries etc. he has completed an ironman also…

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Out of curiosity what does rowing have to do with cycling?

Did you even read what Cam Wurf and Jordan Rapp wrote…the common element is output wattage from the human machine system. In other words…CARDIO!

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Interesting comparison which I guess tells me I’m WAY underperforming my cycling power based on my rowing power. Then again, rowing was virtually a full-time, 6-7 day/ week job and biking is only done 3-4/week as a hobby but still interesting.

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I got my 1500m rowing power up to my former biking FTP when out of shape…but I probably had 9000 lifetime bike hours and probably 45 lifetime erg hours! It sounds like you want to get your rowing 2000m in the range of your 20 min bike power.

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Exactly!

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i also find it interesting that he only rides his TT bike 20 or so % of the time during training. i was under the assumption (from what ive gleaned reading here and what seems to be popular opinion) that you need to train in TT as much as possible to get all the parts of your body (muscles) that help you make the power in that position stronger / more adapted to that position. by no means am i saying hes wrong… you cant argue with results!

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i also find it interesting that he only rides his TT bike 20 or so % of the time during training. i was under the assumption (from what ive gleaned reading here and what seems to be popular opinion) that you need to train in TT as much as possible to get all the parts of your body (muscles) that help you make the power in that position stronger / more adapted to that position. by no means am i saying hes wrong… you cant argue with results!

Hopefully Rapp can come in and comment as I believe his recommendation is that if you ride your road bike with the hip angle on the hoods approximately the same as your TT position hip angle, then you should have no transition problem at all (other than elbows/shoulders locked into the aeropads that takes some getting used to, but should have zero impact on power output). If you are on your road bike in the drops, you’ll scoot forward on the saddle to again arrive at the same hip angle as hoods where you are seated further back.

Normann Stadler before these guys and Kienle currently does lots of road bike miles.