Bike while training for open marathon

Hi,

I’m trying to figure out what is the best approach to use time on the bike while trianing for a marathon.

Basically, I’m trying to decide between:

Option#1 - Use bike to recover and extened base, e.g. mostly endurance rides
In this senario I do ~3 runs a week (a long run, tempo/hard run and easy run) & a few bike rides used mostly for recovery and base building

Option#2 - Use bike to do v02 work and anerobic training with less chance of injury
In this senario I do ~3 runs a week (a long run + 2 easy runs) and do all the hard/temp/anerobic work on the bike (at least for a while) to reduce the risk of injury

Which one of those makes more sense?

Hi,

I’m trying to figure out what is the best approach to use time on the bike while trianing for a marathon.

Basically, I’m trying to decide between:

Option#1 - Use bike to recover and extened base, e.g. mostly endurance rides
In this senario I do ~3 runs a week (a long run, tempo/hard run and easy run) & a few bike rides used mostly for recovery and base building

Option#2 - Use bike to do v02 work and anerobic training with less chance of injury
In this senario I do ~3 runs a week (a long run + 2 easy runs) and do all the hard/temp/anerobic work on the bike (at least for a while) to reduce the risk of injury

Which one of those makes more sense?

I think you’d be hard-pressed to find a coach who would recommend an open marathon training plan on only 3 runs a week. You need running to become second nature. You don’t necessarily need to run huge volume or every day, but at 3 runs a week, on most days you are NOT running which is not great.

My two cents is aim for ~5 runs a week, and throw in a long Z2 bike ride (ideally 2.5 hours+) on the weekend for the aerobic stimulus and low impact. If you can get all of that, you could experiment with another bike session during the week with some intensity. But I think you want to keep most of your key sessions run-specific at such a low volume.

Hi,

I’m trying to figure out what is the best approach to use time on the bike while trianing for a marathon.

Basically, I’m trying to decide between:

Option#1 - Use bike to recover and extened base, e.g. mostly endurance rides
In this senario I do ~3 runs a week (a long run, tempo/hard run and easy run) & a few bike rides used mostly for recovery and base building

Option#2 - Use bike to do v02 work and anerobic training with less chance of injury
In this senario I do ~3 runs a week (a long run + 2 easy runs) and do all the hard/temp/anerobic work on the bike (at least for a while) to reduce the risk of injury

Which one of those makes more sense?

What do you want to do, run a competitive marathon or keep riding your bike during this block? Time on the bike is time that could be spent running.

As above, if you’re serious about the open marathon you need to be running almost everyday, and a lot, 50 mpw minimum but the more you can get the better you’ll be. Option 1 does not give you the ‘tough’ running days that you need. Keep running easy on your easy days and you will be a faster runner. Once you’re already running 100mpw then think about adding in cycling for more base.

What’s your marathon goal? What are your strengths and weakness? What’s your weekly run volume look like? Injury history?

I’m a triathlete who usually does an marathon every year or two. Lately, I’ve prioritized tri training so even if I’m running a marathon (as I did this year) I approached it was if it was a run heavy tri block.

Before that, however (when I was a runner who did triathlons), what I would use the bike to add non-impact volume to my day. All the quality sessions were run sessions, and I made sure that if recovery was going to be impacted, that it was bike volume that would taken out first. What it did though was allow me much more volume than I would have been able to do with just running on its own. At the time, I was bike commuting (on a safe route with few traffic lights), and so would just add that volume to my running.

Though as others have pointed out, you want to be running almost every day for a marathon. If you’re finding that its too hard to run most days, either due to fatigue or injury, then you’ll want to address the cause of this first. Likely, you’ll need to slow your runs down to be able to support running every day.

As always, it really depends on your goals.

I raced my first open marathon in May, followed by a 70.3 two weeks later. This is what worked well* for me:

  • Hanson advanced marathon plan, but only the 3 productive runs (interval, tempo, and long). Skip the easy runs.
  • TrainerRoad 70.3 low-volume plan. Do the swim and bike as prescribed. Replace the 3 runs with the 3 from Hanson.

*in my case, “worked well” means a 2:56 finish at 85kg. Previously my fastest marathons were 3:12 on two occasions, both at IM races, off IM training plans. Despite my weight, running seems to be my relatively strongest discipline.

I feel swimming and biking allows me to do and absorb more volume than if I did more running. Especially when the weather turns nice and I go for 3-5 hour unstructured rides the day before a long run.

Hi,

I’m trying to figure out what is the best approach to use time on the bike while trianing for a marathon.

Basically, I’m trying to decide between:

Option#1 - Use bike to recover and extened base, e.g. mostly endurance rides
In this senario I do ~3 runs a week (a long run, tempo/hard run and easy run) & a few bike rides used mostly for recovery and base building

Option#2 - Use bike to do v02 work and anerobic training with less chance of injury
In this senario I do ~3 runs a week (a long run + 2 easy runs) and do all the hard/temp/anerobic work on the bike (at least for a while) to reduce the risk of injury

Which one of those makes more sense?

my approach was:

  • vo2max / anaerobic work before start the marathon plan
  • during marathon plan (specific marathon plan) only doing hard in running (and swim). Bike used for extend aerobic capacity (zone 1 (<75%ftp) primary, and some work in Zone 2 (sub88% FTP), and recovery. I kept 1 day “with vo2max touches” like 10x30s burst at vo2max. but only for maintenance.

Marathon plan are hard enough, you need to recover, if you also introduce hard sessions on the bike, you will not have enough time to proper assimilate the work in the run.

Plus: from the hard sessions in the bike, you will have only the aerobic capacity benefit on run. The counter part is the “congestion” in the hip flexor muscles that work a lot on the bike, and can be a problem when increasing the run mileage.

My extra 2cts: I will keep a 4th run day, even if it is only 30-40min easy jog.

just my 2 cents but I’ve temporarily transitioned from being a triathlete to being a runner as time is too short atm for tri training, and honestly I don’t think 3 runs per week is enough to do justice to running a marathon.

As a triathlete I used to do 3 runs a week plus 4 bike and 2 swim and in an open marathon my pb was 3:10, I now run 5-7 time per week and down to 2:56 and just done a 1:20 half aiming for a sub 2:50 marathon.

The thing that have helped is learning to run slow, my first sub 3 was done with 90% of running below 140 hr which was 5:15+ per km and peaking at 100km per week, which has meant I can more volume in without injury as my body has become more adapted to this volume I can do more at higher intensity and my easy pace has just gotten faster and faster as well yesterday I avg 4:40 with an avg heart rate of 138bpm!

That said I’ve always kept some biking in there, I don’t have time for long steady rides as well as a long run so a couple of interval sessions in the week seems to keep bike fitness topped up but they really are bonus sessions and they are what gets cut if time becomes more squeezed or I’m feeling fatigued.

The other thing I’d recommend as a pure(r) runner is core work, the lack of swimming really begins to tell for me here and you can do a lot in 15 minutes a few times a week that’ll help you stay strong in the final stages of a marathon!

I’m in the same boat and thinking about doing an open marathon early next year after a couple of years doing only Tris.

May be qualify for a guaranteed entry to Berlin ( sub 2:55 for male 45+).

I like to do more than required, usually, for better or worse. Just pushing myself is a part of fun, so I’m thinking about Pfitzinger 18/70 with potentially adding 1-2 swims and 1 easy ride.

18/70 means 18 week with peak of 70 mpw and starting from around 50 mpw. 6 days/week running. You can easily Google the plan in one neat table.

I’d go with option #1, but perhaps with more running.

I did my first marathon this past June and I plan to do my second HIM next month and first IM in November. In preparation for the marathon I did 5 runs / 2 bike rides / 2-3 swims per week. All my high quality workouts were done running. There’s just no way around it: if you want to run well, you have to, well, run.

Post-June, I’ve resumed IM training and I’m quite happy to have maintained all three disciplines through marathon training.

Others have given good advice – if the marathon is the goal then it will be hard to train on 3 runs/week. I would try to get to 5-6 if possible. Maybe keep 1-3 bikes/week. I wouldn’t worry about trying to keep in a ton of quality on the bike. The VO2 stuff could be a lot with full marathon training. If anything, I think tempo work would be what you would want to consider. The marathon is all about mileage. If you want to run a good marathon, use bike training to boost your aerobic base. If you want a healthy split between running & biking then just think about what your goals are going to be for any racing that you do.

How does something like the following sound:-

4 runs as

Long , building in M pace the closer you get
Tempo / faster running
2 x easy, 1 with strides / fast finish

2 bikes as

1 with over geared work to maintain bike strength
1 long but nothing crazy to maintain endurance.

You could every 3rd or 4th week up the bike volume whilst lowering the run volume, which would give the running legs some recovery and give a boost to bike fitness.

Maybe up the run volume the week before the bike week, so 5-6runs, knowing that the following week would be an easier run week, so:-

Week 1&2 - 3 runs / 2 bikes
Week 3 5-6 runs / 0-1 bike
Week 4 Bike week - 4 bikes / 2 easy runs

And repeat

My body would completely break down if I attempted to run mileage at 50-100 miles a week and instead of racing I’d be sitting idle injured! I don’t understand the insistence that marathon training needs to be on the order of 100 miles a week to be successful. Inserting cross training (cycling and swimming) is extremely beneficial as it allows extra volume without the stress on your legs.

Now the OP didn’t say if they were trying to get an Olympic trials qualifier, Boston qualifier, or how experienced they are at marathon running.

What I’ve learned, after running for now 30+ years, is that I cannot handle high run mileage, period. The MOST running mileage I did in a leadup to a running marathon (before getting as much into full distance Ironman) was 50 miles a week (5,10,5,10,20 were my runs). That was for my first marathon and I qualified for Boston, but then got injured training for Boston so couldn’t race. After getting into longer triathlons, I did my second “running” marathon and probably ran 35 miles a week at most. In that training, I swapped out the midweek and weekend 10 milers with bike rides, including a long Z2 bike ride on a Saturday. Did that one 6 years after the first, ran a little faster (but within 1 min total time).

NOW, I’m 10 years older than those two attempts and I generally don’t run much over 2.5 hours EVER while training for a full 140.6 or even Ultraman (with a double marathon the final day). Am I running as fast as I was before, not right now, and yes I acknowledge if I do want to get back to that previous running speed I have to shift the training focus a little. My shift will be towards reintroducing speedwork, track workouts, hill work, and focused tempo runs. But - I won’t be doing 50+ mile running weeks for sure.

The one thing I’ll say though to the OP- 3 runs a week won’t cut it (unless you are just trying to finish). You need the frequency of running, even if you aren’t doing high volume. I’d be looking at 5 runs a week for sure, where you do 2 mid-length ones (60 min), one long (duration depending on how injury prone you are, but my guess is 2.5hrs max), two short (~30 min). Along with this schedule, do 2-3 rides a week (2 mid week, one long). The one mid-week ride and the long ride partner with those 30 min short runs.

My body would completely break down if I attempted to run mileage at 50-100 miles a week and instead of racing I’d be sitting idle injured! I don’t understand the insistence that marathon training needs to be on the order of 100 miles a week to be successful. Inserting cross training (cycling and swimming) is extremely beneficial as it allows extra volume without the stress on your legs.

Now the OP didn’t say if they were trying to get an Olympic trials qualifier, Boston qualifier, or how experienced they are at marathon running.

What I’ve learned, after running for now 30+ years, is that I cannot handle high run mileage, period. The MOST running mileage I did in a leadup to a running marathon (before getting as much into full distance Ironman) was 50 miles a week (5,10,5,10,20 were my runs). That was for my first marathon and I qualified for Boston, but then got injured training for Boston so couldn’t race. After getting into longer triathlons, I did my second “running” marathon and probably ran 35 miles a week at most. In that training, I swapped out the midweek and weekend 10 milers with bike rides, including a long Z2 bike ride on a Saturday. Did that one 6 years after the first, ran a little faster (but within 1 min total time).

NOW, I’m 10 years older than those two attempts and I generally don’t run much over 2.5 hours EVER while training for a full 140.6 or even Ultraman (with a double marathon the final day). Am I running as fast as I was before, not right now, and yes I acknowledge if I do want to get back to that previous running speed I have to shift the training focus a little. My shift will be towards reintroducing speedwork, track workouts, hill work, and focused tempo runs. But - I won’t be doing 50+ mile running weeks for sure.

The one thing I’ll say though to the OP- 3 runs a week won’t cut it (unless you are just trying to finish). You need the frequency of running, even if you aren’t doing high volume. I’d be looking at 5 runs a week for sure, where you do 2 mid-length ones (60 min), one long (duration depending on how injury prone you are, but my guess is 2.5hrs max), two short (~30 min). Along with this schedule, do 2-3 rides a week (2 mid week, one long). The one mid-week ride and the long ride partner with those 30 min short runs.

Yeah, I’m not saying you need to do 100mpw to run a marathon, I’m saying if you want to run your fastest possible marathon you need seriously high run mileage, and 100mpw is an arbitrary but lofty goal that *most runners can achieve after a few years. Truly the biggest determinant of marathon success is running mileage.

Like you noted, there are people who just can’t take the high mileage, and that’s fine. But I would never start out with the assumption that an athlete is capped at 35-50mpw. We would build up slowly and keep an eye on niggles and pains to make sure it’s not too much too soon, but keep the goal at 100+. You’d be amazed how easy athletes find a 50/60/70 mile week when they know the 100 mile week is coming up.

I’ve said similar things in the past about training volume, mainly that for amateur athletes the limiter is almost always available time, not fatigue. In this case, I would argue the best thing you, OP, or any triathlete trying to PR an open marathon could do is spend a month or two shifting as much work into running as possible. If you can to 100% running that would be awesome, but I realize running volume is pretty much capped at ~12hr/wk for most people. I would then question the rest of the sessions and if they are adding to or detracting from running fitness. Hard cycling workouts are fun but will ultimately detract from your ability to do the important run workout.

I guess I’ll just disagree with the notion that cycling “takes time away from running”. I mean in a pure sense, YES, if the mindset is that the “only way” to train effectively for a marathon is by JUST running. Then people with that mindset would feel that a cycling workout did nothing for fitness and nothing for improving strength and was “wasted time”. I call BS on that mindset and ask → why are we so hell bent against taking advantage of an activity to build strength and not beat up the body?

I counter to say that some people can and SHOULD substitute cycling for running to help achieve a high volume of training without the same high pounding on the legs. Avoid injury, get stronger = win/win.

Like I said- my personal experience is that I know that if I do not have the cross training in there, and try and achieve the volume solely with running, I get injured and sit on the sidelines. Sitting on the sidelines will not get me back to a BQ time. Training carefully and effectively with some of the running volume replaced by cycling - with a focus on running speed - that will work for me.

I’m currently coaching someone doing a marathon at the end of October. I have him doing three rides a week while running six days a week. Monday is his day off from running, and I have him doing a 60-90 min spin at 50% or so. The other two rides are relatively easy, but help a bit with overall volume on easier days - a little FTP work is the biggest effort. We’ll see how it goes in about eight weeks.

I’ve found personally that having a mid-week run of 12-13 miles really helps for a marathon, if it can fit into the schedule.

I’d strongly recommend not trying to do a marathon on three runs a week - that wouldn’t go well for 95% or more of the population.

I guess I’ll just disagree with the notion that cycling “takes time away from running”. I mean in a pure sense, YES, if the mindset is that the “only way” to train effectively for a marathon is by JUST running. Then people with that mindset would feel that a cycling workout did nothing for fitness and nothing for improving strength and was “wasted time”. I call BS on that mindset and ask → why are we so hell bent against taking advantage of an activity to build strength and not beat up the body?

I counter to say that some people can and SHOULD substitute cycling for running to help achieve a high volume of training without the same high pounding on the legs. Avoid injury, get stronger = win/win.

Like I said- my personal experience is that I know that if I do not have the cross training in there, and try and achieve the volume solely with running, I get injured and sit on the sidelines. Sitting on the sidelines will not get me back to a BQ time. Training carefully and effectively with some of the running volume replaced by cycling - with a focus on running speed - that will work for me.

I agree that some people should substitute cycling for running in marathon training, but I disagree with that being the baseline assumption. As I said, once we max out possible running mileage, then we should consider cycling as a supplemental workout.

The idea that cycling ‘takes time away from running’ is contingent on total volume. An athlete with 20hrs/wk to train could benefit from cycling in marathon training, as long as it’s not detracting from key run workouts. An athlete with <8hrs/wk to train for a marathon should usually be doing 100% running. The cycling is great for fitness, but we are not training for fitness, we are training for to hold a maximum possible pace for 2.5-3 hrs. There is a lot of overlap but not perfect overlap, especially with things like joint strength and tendon elasticity, which can really only be gained by running more.

The Furman Institute of Running and Scientific Training (FIRST) did a series of studies (back in 2003 and 2004) that used 3 days a week for marathon and half marathon training. Basically, the FIRST approach was similar to your Option 1. The other runs (long, tempo and strength/hills) were largely pace-based or threshold. I think there was a popular book (about 2005) that outlined the plan. Anyhow, I know several runners who successfully completed their open marathons using this “3 days of running/other days cross-training (biking)” approach. BY “successful” I mean hit a BQ time. So it can be done.

Here a link to the FIRST program

https://www.marathon-training-program.com/three-day-program-faster/
.

Here a link to the FIRST program

https://www.marathon-training-program.com/…-day-program-faster/

Thanks for the link.

Is it just me or are the interval paces pretty neckbreaking? I might not be able to hit them. How do you run 12x400 m at your 1k PB pace?