Bike training - "the road to killer 2 x 20's"

Triathlon Forum
1

Howdy all,

So, I’m messing around w/ my new KK trainer, and I came up with (I’m sure a zillion other folks have something similar) the following progression of workouts to build up towards a kick-ass 2 x 20 workout. It started as an aborted attempt to do muscle-tension intervals, but the gearing on my dedicated trainer bike (old RockHopper mtb w/a slick on it) isn’t nearly hard enuff, so I did the workout at 80 rpm’s vs 50-55, since the wattage was way too low at that cadence.

Advice, suggestions, modifications are welcome - nitpicking and debating semantics we can do without. Thanks in advance for your input!

Anyway, here it is, whaddaya think?:

Warm up, 5 mins at top of Z2, 5 mins rest (mid-top Z1) 4-5 reps, warm down

W/U, 6 mins at top Z2, 4 mins rest (mid-topZ1), 4 reps, W/D

W/U, 7 mins at top Z2, 3 mins rest (Z1), 4 reps, W/D

W/U, 8 mins at top Z2, 2 mins rest (Z1), 4 reps, W/D

W/U, 9 mins at top Z2, 1 min rest (Z1), 4 reps, W/D

W/U, 20 mins at top Z2, 5 mins rest (z1), 2 reps, W/D

Then, do a CP30 TT test, then a week of easy spin.

work intervals are at 80-82 rpm, recovery at approx 100 rpm. According to the Power Computer (yes, I know it’s only a calculation, not a measurement), this equates so far to approx 20-20.5 mph @ 260-270 W for the work sets, and 16ish mph and approx 160 W for recovery sets.

** Repeat the progression, only now at the top of Z3 for the work intervals.

** Repeat the progression, only now near the top of Z4 for the work intervals.

I figger this will build my race-specific bike fitness, in very mininal time (2 x approx. 1 hr workouts / week, plus maybe an occasional easy spin or one-leg drill here and there), and allow me to focus more time and effort on my limiters (total ineptitude at swimming due to total lack of practice, and so-so running).

I’m not a big one for LSD this time of year, since it’s too freaking cold outside, and too freaking boring inside.

Again, thx in advance for any thoughts or input.

2

Why don’t you just start doing the 2x20 workout? (And I think 5 minutes between the 20s is too much.)

3

<< Why don’t you just start doing the 2x20 workout? >>

Good question. Well, it is supposed to be the off season. And left to my own devices, I probably would (I did nothing but intervals, then recovery days, pretty much all last Winter), but I’m trying not to kill myself or get burned out.

<< And I think 5 minutes between the 20s is too much >>

You may be correct. I’d rather be a little over-recovered than under, so that’s why I picked that for now (as well as that part was based on some advice given to me by a poster here), but, we’ll see if it needs to get reduced when I get there.

Thx, Mike B.

4

As Lance Armstrong said, “The Tour is won in January, not July”. Build your power now. Just do the intervals at a power level that will allow you to do the intervals. Remember that it takes a few minutes to get the energy systems going, so doing 6-10 minute intervals is wasting a significant amount of time. And 5 minutes is way too much rest time. The only reason you get a break in these (L4, in another vernacular) intervals is for mental rest. If you can do 30-60 minutes straight, all the better.

5

I haven’t read a lot of bike theory yet. Don’t know what Z1, Z2, W/D, 2x20….Could you point me and others to the original source of this workout method and language? Thanks.

6

This stuff seems way to complicated.

I agree with others - just get on the bike and start doing some “longer” intervals with a bit of rest. It’s pretty straight forward.

A few points:

  • It takes a few minutes( 3 - 5) for your physiology to stabilize at that effort

  • When you go longer, it’s harder to go to hard. If you can’t repeat the same effort after a short break, you know that you have gone too hard. You’ll figure it out.

  • I use the count down and repeat timer on my watch. Set it a 5 minutes and then you can do 5 on/5 off or 10 on/5 off and so on. I do the same running.

Fleck

7

I’m sure it would work, but I’d never keep track of it all. These are the best possible winter workouts, IMO. I’m doing a Zn4 workout twice a week right now.

Like somebody already said – just do the long intervals. Yes, the power at which you can do them is not as high as you’d like right now, but you just do what you can and raise it every week or two.

While I think 2x20’s are a fantastic workout, I have focus problems when indoors, and I do 3x13 or 4x10 instead. Any of these three will provide the same benefits if you keep the effort constant and the rest short.

If you’re doing them at the right power, you don’t need 5 minutes rest. These aren’t “full recovery” intervals. Rest only long enough to drink something and get up your nerve to start again.

8

2x20 is somewhere along the progression, the killer MLSS workout is 3x20 :-)))
.

9

just so we’re clear. the 2X20’ are supposed to be all out right? almost like 2 time trials?

10

http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/levels.html

See Level 4 (Lactate Threshold).

11

Seems like a fine progression if it helps you cope with the workout. As other have noted, you could probably get a better workout by resting less, but if you are concerned about getting burnt out on your trainer then your method will be better suited to your needs. Certainly you will get some training benefit.

One question - why the low RPMs? Is this your normal race cadence? If it is, then great. If however your race cadence is up at 90-95 rpm, then in I think you should train the majority of the time at that cadence. Doing high-rpm reps and low rpm muscle tension reps are good, but not for 80% of your saddle time.

12

yeah, i agree. 2 x 20 is almost a waste of time. 3 x 20 (or 4 x 15 when I’m fatigued) is much more beneficial.

13

<< One question - why the low RPMs? Is this your normal race cadence? >>

Nope. My normal race (and otherwise) cadence of late is 100-110+rpm.

I just figgered I would try it slower, since it seemed more of a muscle-building workout that way, rather than an aerobic one. (remember, I originally started off wanting to do muscle-tension interval type stuff, hence the lower than normal, for me, RPMs). Also, I was, and am still curious, as to whether I’m more efficient at higher or lower RPMs, and since I ride high RPM almost all the time, this seemed like a way to kill 2 birds w/ one stone.

And as for doing 3 x 20 - well, that’s pretty much a TT race or Oly bike split at every workout, which to me seems like overkill. No thanks…

Thanks all for the input, gives me more to think about - and that CyclingPeaks link is a great one, but its strange, as their zones are somewhat different to those I’ve been using, such that my current workout program I thought was my upper Zone 2, is actually mid Zone 3 according to that chart. shrug - OK, so it looks like I’m already on Part II of my progression, and I didn’t even know it. hahaha!!! ; )

14

Also, I was, and am still curious, as to whether I’m more efficient at higher or lower RPMs, and since I ride high RPM almost all the time, this seemed like a way to kill 2 birds w/ one stone.

There have been some interesting discussions on cadence and efficiency - you might want to search them. If I remember correctly, the basic consensus (as much as ST ever has one) was that although lower rpms were more efficient, higher rpms recruited fewer fast-twitch (highly fatigueable) muscle fibers and was therefore preferable to prevent burnout on the run portion.

I wonder if that workout is really killing 2 birds with one stone. I have little experience on which to base this, but it seems like you’d really want a true slow cadence/high gear for strength, while doing your 2x20s at your normal race candence. (train the way you race, and all)

15

just so we’re clear. the 2X20’ are supposed to be all out right? almost like 2 time trials?
All out – but constant power during each and across both intervals. Do not fade!

16

<< it seems like you’d really want a true slow cadence/high gear for strength, while doing your 2x20s at your normal race candence. (train the way you race, and all) >>

Good points, and well taken.

Well, by default I’ll end up bumping up the cadence, since I’m currently maxed out in the “big ring” (such as it is on a 44x13 7-spd mtb drivetrain), so I’m guessing it’ll take probably 90+ RPM for the next series to hit upper Z3, and likely 100+ for the final go thru at Z4. Assuming I stick with the plan, which I am already modifying based on feedback here. At a minimum I’ll drop the sets w/ only 5 and 6 mins of work interval, mebbe even the 7 min one, and just do the 8, 9, and then the 2x20 mins sets. Then lather, rinse, repeat at higher HR and wattage.

I do have a 11T cassette on the way (thanks Nashbar!), so hopefully that will make something closer to true muscle tension training possible, or, I could just break down and put the road bike on the trainer, but it’s nice not having to do that if avoidable.

<< although lower rpms were more efficient, higher rpms recruited fewer fast-twitch (highly fatigueable) muscle fibers and was therefore preferable to prevent burnout on the run portion. >>

Yeah, but I wanna Be Like Bjorn! ; )

All kidding aside (actually, I DO wanna be like Bjorn), that’s why I race and generally ride at 100-110+ cadence. It seems like I have more left for the run that way, plus, it hurts a lot less to “bog down” from 105 to 90rpm’s on a roller, rather than 90 to 75 - yeouch!

PS - as an aside, I checked my Friel HR zones vs. CyclingPeaks, and they are indeed different:

My bike LTHR is 170 (or thereabouts, at least it was the last time I checked it anyway), so according to Friel, my 147-150 hr is upper Z2; however for CP’s power-based levels (and corresponding HR’s), it is considered mid Level 3 - Tempo. I guess even the experts can’t totally agree about this stuff…

17

Someone did the math, and determined that riding at low cadence (like 50-60rpm) uses about 50% of your max single rep leg press strength. Would you go to the weight room and do lifts with only 50% of what you could max out? The point was that since the strength required to pedal a bicycle is pretty low, doing these “muscle tension” workouts is not very effective, unless you actually ride at those cadences.

18

<< snip - Would you go to the weight room and do lifts with only 50% of what you could max out? >>

If I was only doing a handful of reps, no.

If I was doing a rep 50-55 times per minute, for 10 mins straight, then a short rest, and then repeating that again, and again, yes.

<< doing these “muscle tension” workouts is not very effective, unless you actually ride at those cadences. >>

Lance and Chris Carmichael beg to differ. Seems to be ‘effective’ for him.

(and sadly, on some really steeeeep hills, I do end up riding at 60 rpms or so on occasion)