I currently ride a stock '03 QR Tequillo (size 53 with 650cc wheels). I was recently professionally fit in Grand Rapids, Michigan by a person who was trained at the “Serotta school” fostered by Ben Serotta, Christopher Kouts (sp) and Paul Lavine. In short, I was told that my QR was far to aggressive of a seat tube angle (78) and that a custom Serotta would work best for me. I am skeptical b/c of the size suggestions and the shallow seat tube angle. The fitter informs me that I can not be biomechanically efficient on my current bike and suggested that the optimal fit for me is a custom bike as follows: Seat tube length 51 Seat tube angle 73 Top tube length 48 Head tube angle 73 Crank arm length 172.5 Saddle rail to TT 14 Saddle top to BB 69.5 Saddle to stem drop 4.5 Saddle tip to c. bb 2 Saddle tip to c. hb 39.5
He also said that my saddle to bar drop should be 4.5 (12 on my QR) and the drop from the saddle to top bad should be +2.5 (6.5 now).
I am about 5’ 9"+, have a true inseam measurement of 81 and am told that I am quite inflexible (muscular and otherwise :))
I asked the fitter about Slowman’s school of bikefit (i.e. F.I.S.T.) and was told that both are similar in the fit of the hips to pedals, but they are different in many areas such as in how far the rider is stretched out (top tube length et al). The answer was elusive enough for me to be cautious.
I also noted on slowtwitch.com that Slowman endorses Levine’s bike shop in NY which only sells Serotta (but will fit you also).
I was ready to plunk down some big change for a custom Serotta but do not want to be disappointed b/c I was pretty eager for a Lightspeed, Seven or Guru tri-bike. The Serotta CXII will be somewhat softer in the bottom bracket than I am used to and I am not completely sold and would like to know if there are competing schools of thought on fit.
I think Serotta sizing is for a TT position not Tri position. Slowman or Tom D can probably give you better insight. I would also be suspicious that they are pushing a Serotta, conflict of interest?
Having said that I was fitted last spring via the Serotta method. It definately helped, Im faster and more comfortable. But its a slacker position, not aggresive or steep tri position.
Serotta is marketing a tri bike - the CSXII, but I agree, the fit was more geared toward TT then tri.
Regarding the Serotta fit, the fitter recommended a new stem which brought my bars tops to even with my seat, as well as moved my seat all the way back. He wanted to put on a new seat post to move it farther back, but I was uncomfortable with doing so. I would really like Slowman’s opinion on the matter as I am skeptical.
To see if I like the less step angles, I am thinking of getting a road bike with a 73-76 degree seat angle, then maybe consider a new tri bike next year if I really like it (and perform better).
In general my opinion is that custom is a last resort. Exceptions to this may be visiting Paul Levine personally and having him do the entire project.
I don;t like custom geometries becasue there is often a lack of interface between the bike fitter and the frame builder.
I am a competent fitter, but I do not pretend to fully understand all of the dynamics of frame building. Therefore, I can tell you the dimensions of the ideal bike to fit you but I can’t accurately predict if that bike will handle and ride well since I am not a frame builder.
Some custom places just build whatever the fitter sends them: “53cm seat tube with a 57cm top tube and a 76 degree seat tube angle…” Hmm, I wonder how that will handle?
Bottom line- with custom, you are the product manager, test pilot and crash dummy.
Before anyone goes nuts’o on me I want you to keep this all in perspective. First, I am quite sure that the folks who did your fit are very knowledgeable, highly competent, and of sound ethics. I have heard very good thinks about Paul. This post is not questioning these facts.
Now read whatever you want into this part – everyone I have known who has gone to a Serotta School fitter has come away with the recommendation that they buy a Serotta.
Thanks Tom - Amen on your comment regarding the “lack of interface between the bike fitter and the frame builder.” I emailed QR on the matter and an engineer of their’s told me the same thing.
I am scheduled for a fit this Sat with Mike at your shop. Really looking hard at the Felt F35 road bike (or a Lightspeed Solano), unless you guys tell me that my QR is all wrong (then I will look at another tri bike). Pls disregard the PM I sent to you yesterday.
I should have mentioned that I harbor no ill will toward the person or shop that fit me, nor Levine or anyone else mentioned in the post. I just think that there is a fundamental difference in seat tube angles and I need to find out what I like. Whatever will help me acheive a 1:00 40K is ok by me.
The Elite was also an option by the bike shop, so I also don’t want to make it sound like a Serotta was a jammed down my throat, but I got the sense that they thought a slack Serotta was better for me. I don’t know what to read into it, but my ego tells me that they are trying to say that I am a age grouper and don’t forget it.
One thing you might want to do is send Dave Greenfield an email (info@elitebicycles.com) and see what he thinks. Give him your dimensions and let him think the problem through for you – or at least give you a second opinion before you drop some big coin. My experience with Dave is that he will give you the answer of an honest broker. In fact Dave told me he could get me in a stock Elite frame if I wanted to go 650cc. Further, he is a fitter and has a direct feedback relationship with his frame builder. What you do with the information is up to you. No harm no foul in my book.
I have been reading the previous posts and just wanted to add some thoughts. I recently purchased a custom Guru. I worked with Paul Levine and my experience could not have been better. I went to him with a list of bikes I was interested in, and after a fitting session we narrowed it down to a few choices. I chose to go with the Guru. Not only did Paul not try to persuade me to go with a Serotta, but he dealt directly with Guru on my behalf to make sure the bike was built properly. He oversaw the entire process from start to finish. As far as custom bikes, I am very glad I decided to go that route, and there are people out there who will take the time to help you be sure it gets done correctly, Serotta or not.
I picked up my bike last week, and met with Paul afterwards because he was interested enough to make sure things were done right. I would not have been able to do this on my own. My bike is incredible. Custom can be done, you just need to have the right people on your side… and in this case Paul was unbelievably great to work with… and again… no I didn’t buy a Serotta.
A bike needs to reflect it’s rider and not the other way around. If that means that someone is a good candidate for a “custom” bike, than so be it. Everyone is anatomically different. I have fitted men on “women’s specific geometry” (purely by coincidence) because their anatomy called for it. I have men riding on “women’s specific saddles” because they find them comfortable. Today, most of the better frame manufacturers Guru, Serotta, etc. offer such a wide spectrum of stock sizes that most people can find a size that is completely appropriate for them. These manufacturers also recognize that offering custom options is very important and, for those that do charge, it is frequently nominal. One caveat about bike position is that it is dynamic. I suggest that riders reevaluate their positions twice a year based on certain criteria. That is why it is crucial to have a good relationship with a fitter who knows you as an athlete and as a person and who can apply knowledge, trraining, and experience in order to ensure that best fit possible for you.
stay the hell away from any product this fitter recommends. he/she obviosuly doesn’t understand anything about bicycle design be it for road bikes or tt bikes or tri bikes. a 48cm top tube would produce a bicycle with horrible charachteristics including potential crank arm or even down tube over-lap. go get fit by someone who understands the way bicycles balance and ride not some moron fresh from a weekend seminar in upstate new york. the proposed “fit” isa bogus and would produce a horrible bicycle.
look at his reach measurement of 39.5. this guy is an idiot and will produce an unrideable bike for you. the fact that serotta “certifies” people like this to design bicycles is a travesty.