Bike fit - adjusting reach

Triathlon Forum
1

I have done a Guru fit within the past week and came up with a stack/reach of 527/410. I’m 48, mostly inflexible, and competed last year, IMMD, on a road bike with aerobars. My stack/reach results in me having about a 22 degree back angle. I was told that idea is somewhere in the 15-17 degrees.

My stack/reach seem to fit a Cervelo P2 (522/411) very closely and the 2018 Blue Elite Triad SP (526/401).

For the Blue Triad, how would one make up the 9mm shortness in reach?
Would this generally be done by moving the pads on the aero bar or would the fitter change the stem to the next longer size?
Would a novice necessarily notice a 9mm/.35 inch difference in reach?

Given that the P2 has Profile Design aerobars, that stack is pretty easily changed by bringing the aerobars up just a bit with some PD bracket risers.

Thanks in advance.

2

“I have done a Guru fit within the past week and came up with a stack/reach of 527/410.”

is that really all your fitter told you, about how you fit aboard your bike? did he give you no more information than that?

3

Shifting the aerobar is the fastest/easiest/cheapest way to go. The reason to go the new stem route is if you also want to move the basebar position out.

4

No, I got more information from the fitter. Perhaps I was focusing on the wrong things. Here’s the rest of the fit info.

Pad Reach X: 472
Pad Stack Y: 680

Handlebar X: 472
Handlebar Y: 625

Stem length: 90
Stem angle: 6
Stem stack: 40
Stem stack: 45
Spacer height: 45
Head angle: 72

Reach: 410
Stack: 537

Saddle X: 130
Saddle Y: 696

Saddle thickness: 56
Seatpost setback: 0

Seat angle: 79.4
Seapost setback: 763

The Pad Stack Y measurement stood out a bit to me as being a bit tall. All I know is, what we had on the Guru machine certainly seemed to feel like a position I can hold for 5 hours. Obviously I’m not super knowledgeable on the topic. I’ve read some, had the foresight to at least attempt a Guru fit first. Now I’m trying to make sense of it all.

5

Any photographs? Are you carrying a bunch of extra lbs?

6

Pad Reach X: 472
Pad Stack Y: 680

Handlebar X: 472
Handlebar Y: 625

Stem length: 90
Stem angle: 6
Stem stack: 40
Stem stack: 45
Spacer height: 45
Head angle: 72

Reach: 410
Stack: 537

Saddle X: 130
Saddle Y: 696

Saddle thickness: 56
Seatpost setback: 0

Seat angle: 79.4
Seapost setback: 763First things first, there is good information here - enough to determine what bikes fit you well. What’s not here is any evidence that these measurements were the result of you being in a good position. So let’s take this fit at face value and assume your’e in a great position (and judging by your numbers at the contact points - saddle and armpad positions - it’s likely your fit isn’t bad).

There’s one bit of data that makes me skeptical, though:
**Spacer height: 45 **
WHY???

Doing this means that your frame geometry values are useless, yet that’s the data you were planning to use to make a bike purchase.I posted about this phenomenon on the Fit Forum - fitters using spacers on the fit bike when the fit bike exists partially so you don’t use spacers!

So again, let’s assume that the fit is good but let’s get rid of everything under the handlebar x/y. Using your handlebar x/y and running it through our fit database yields lots of great options (albeit on the tall/narrow side of things). Our tool assumes the fit was done with a Profile Design bar with the armpads set in the middle holes (fore-aft), so if the aerobars used during the fit measure reasonably close to profile T4+ extensions mounted as I described, this is what I get:
Scott Plasma 10 or 20 in a 56 - fits you really great with the stock setup (frame stack 560, frame reach 417 - you’d configure with 15 mm of steerer tube spacers in addition to the stock topcap).Felt IA 56 (with 35-40 mm of armpad pedestals)Felt B 56 (frame stack 554, frame reach 420 - you’d use 2 cm of steerer tube spacers in addition to the stock topcap)Cervelo P2 58 (frame stack 559, frame reach 437 - you’d use 20 mm of steerer tube spacers in addition to the stock topcap and shorten the stem 1 cm from the stock option)
Additionally, all of these options offer easy adjustment if you want to move to a lower cockpit position.

Now in regards to your original post, as there is a lot to unwind there:
I’m 48, mostly inflexible, and competed last year, IMMD, on a road bike with aerobars. My stack/reach results in me having about a 22 degree back angle. I was told that idea is somewhere in the 15-17 degrees. I don’t see many athletes at 15-17 degrees, and I’m criticized by my competitors locally for being “too aggressive” with my fits. Most of the elite athletes I fit ride in the 18-22 degree range.

And your flexibility almost certainly has zero impact on your ability to sustain aero. I’m puzzled why that myth hangs on as well as it does.
My stack/reach seem to fit a Cervelo P2 (522/411) very closely and the 2018 Blue Elite Triad SP (526/401). As you can tell from the earlier part of my post, both of these bikes are too small if the position you gave me is a good position.
For the Blue Triad, how would one make up the 9mm shortness in reach?
Would this generally be done by moving the pads on the aero bar or would the fitter change the stem to the next longer size?
Would a novice necessarily notice a 9mm/.35 inch difference in reach? Just for the sake of the exercise (even though I pointed out this option is too small), it’s a good question to answer for the exercise.

The fact of the matter is that the frame reach being short doesn’t tell you anything about how to bridge the gap, because you don’t contact the frame, you contact the armpads. Depending on the aerobars and their ergonomics, there may not be any difference to speak of, or it may be bigger than the 9 mm you outlined.

Assuming that, indeed, the reach to the armpad is 9 mm short, I’d prefer to bring the saddle forward if possible. If that’s not an option, then I’m moving the pads toward the rider. And if that’s not an option, then I’d shorten the stem.

Let’s say you’re completely stuck as you are being fit on your bike and the budget doesn’t allow for the purchase of a new bike. And on your bike, you can’t move the saddle forward, you can’t move the armpads back, and you can’t shorten the stem (maybe because there isn’t a stem and you’re on an integrated setup). If I encounter that scenario as a fitter,then I look for a different saddle that will push the rider more forward than the saddle they’re currently on (and it’s obviously got to be comfortable and all of that).

To bridge gaps like the one you describe, there are a number of ways a good fitter can make adjustments and still put the rider in an orthodox position.

7

Lots of good info here. You should post your video on “fits”, I’m not sure how.

Pad Reach X: 472
Pad Stack Y: 680

Handlebar X: 472
Handlebar Y: 625

Stem length: 90
Stem angle: 6
Stem stack: 40
Stem stack: 45
Spacer height: 45
Head angle: 72

Reach: 410
Stack: 537

Saddle X: 130
Saddle Y: 696

Saddle thickness: 56
Seatpost setback: 0

Seat angle: 79.4
Seapost setback: 763First things first, there is good information here - enough to determine what bikes fit you well. What’s not here is any evidence that these measurements were the result of you being in a good position. So let’s take this fit at face value and assume your’e in a great position (and judging by your numbers at the contact points - saddle and armpad positions - it’s likely your fit isn’t bad).

There’s one bit of data that makes me skeptical, though:
**Spacer height: 45 **
WHY???

Doing this means that your frame geometry values are useless, yet that’s the data you were planning to use to make a bike purchase.I posted about this phenomenon on the Fit Forum - fitters using spacers on the fit bike when the fit bike exists partially so you don’t use spacers!

So again, let’s assume that the fit is good but let’s get rid of everything under the handlebar x/y. Using your handlebar x/y and running it through our fit database yields lots of great options (albeit on the tall/narrow side of things). Our tool assumes the fit was done with a Profile Design bar with the armpads set in the middle holes (fore-aft), so if the aerobars used during the fit measure reasonably close to profile T4+ extensions mounted as I described, this is what I get:
Scott Plasma 10 or 20 - fits you really great with the stock setup (frame stack 560, frame reach 417 - you’d configure with 15 mm of steerer tube spacers in addition to the stock topcap).Felt IA 56 (with 35-40 mm of armpad pedestals)Felt B 56 (frame stack 554, frame reach 420 - you’d use 2 cm of steerer tube spacers in addition to the stock topcap)Cervelo P2 58 (frame stack 559, frame reach 437 - you’d use 20 mm of steerer tube spacers in addition to the stock topcap and shorten the stem 1 cm from the stock option)
Additionally, all of these options offer easy adjustment if you want to move to a lower cockpit position.

Now in regards to your original post, as there is a lot to unwind there:
I’m 48, mostly inflexible, and competed last year, IMMD, on a road bike with aerobars. My stack/reach results in me having about a 22 degree back angle. I was told that idea is somewhere in the 15-17 degrees. I don’t see many athletes at 15-17 degrees, and I’m criticized by my competitors locally for being “too aggressive” with my fits. Most of the elite athletes I fit ride in the 18-22 degree range.

And your flexibility almost certainly has zero impact on your ability to sustain aero. I’m puzzled why that myth hangs on as well as it does.
My stack/reach seem to fit a Cervelo P2 (522/411) very closely and the 2018 Blue Elite Triad SP (526/401). As you can tell from the earlier part of my post, both of these bikes are too small if the position you gave me is a good position.
For the Blue Triad, how would one make up the 9mm shortness in reach?
Would this generally be done by moving the pads on the aero bar or would the fitter change the stem to the next longer size?
Would a novice necessarily notice a 9mm/.35 inch difference in reach? Just for the sake of the exercise (even though I pointed out this option is too small), it’s a good question to answer for the exercise.

The fact of the matter is that the frame reach being short doesn’t tell you anything about how to bridge the gap, because you don’t contact the frame, you contact the armpads. Depending on the aerobars and their ergonomics, there may not be any difference to speak of, or it may be bigger than the 9 mm you outlined.

Assuming that, indeed, the reach to the armpad is 9 mm short, I’d prefer to bring the saddle forward if possible. If that’s not an option, then I’m moving the pads toward the rider. And if that’s not an option, then I’d shorten the stem.

Let’s say you’re completely stuck as you are being fit on your bike and the budget doesn’t allow for the purchase of a new bike. And on your bike, you can’t move the saddle forward, you can’t move the armpads back, and you can’t shorten the stem (maybe because there isn’t a stem and you’re on an integrated setup). If I encounter that scenario as a fitter,then I look for a different saddle that will push the rider more forward than the saddle they’re currently on (and it’s obviously got to be comfortable and all of that).

To bridge gaps like the one you describe, there are a number of ways a good fitter can make adjustments and still put the rider in an orthodox position.

8

Firstly, thanks everyone. Secondly, I apparently put this in the wrong forum. I apologize.

I’m a little dubious about the Pad Stack Y being 680. It seems just way too tall. I should have include that I’m about 5’ 9.5". I weigh about 165, so not small but not huge either. I’m not fitting around my knees hitting my belly. It’s more about my hamstrings/lower back/core strength not allowing me to get my back down any further. It was funny, you can watch the bike lowering and to a point my back stops going down and my arms start extending. I thought it was funny anyway.

I may very well need to fit on a size 56/58. Not being in the business, and knowing on a road bike I fit in the 54/56 sizing (Trek), a 58 sounds really out of bounds. If I understand Pad Stack Y is 680. If the suggested frame stack of 537, that’d mean the pads are a full 6 inches. Sounds kinda high.

The bars used during the testing was a Profile Design. From what I recall, I didn’t see any risers on the bars. Nothing under the pads and no risers connecting the bar to the wing on the bike.

Attached is a picture of me at the fitting.

I just need to go back to the fitter and talk a little more about the fit.

bike.jpg

9

What crank arm lengths did you test?

Which saddles did you test?

10

there’s so much wrong in this post. Trent seems to lay it out quite well.

“I have done a Guru fit within the past week and came up with a stack/reach of 527/410.”

is that really all your fitter told you, about how you fit aboard your bike? did he give you no more information than that?

11

I may very well need to fit on a size 56/58. Not being in the business, and knowing on a road bike I fit in the 54/56 sizing (Trek), a 58 sounds really out of bounds. If I understand Pad Stack Y is 680. If the suggested frame stack of 537, that’d mean the pads are a full 6 inches. Sounds kinda high.Assuming a Profile Design Prosvet base bar and T4+ extensions, using a 90 mm stem pitched at -7 degrees and a 1 cm headset topcap gives me a 100 mm difference between the frame and the top of the armpad. You’d need 40+ mm of spacers to bridge the remaining gap you have there.
Attached is a picture of me at the fitting.

I just need to go back to the fitter and talk a little more about the fit.I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that fit doesn’t appear to be that great.

You need to be stretched out, the cockpit is too high, and that saddle doesn’t look like it agrees with you. You definitely need to roll your pelvis aft and it’s possible you aren’t doing so because that saddle isn’t all that comfortable.

It’s possible the changes necessary aren’t significant (better posture fixes can fix a lot of apparent fit issues) and the bikes your fitter recommended might absolutely be appropriate. But there’s not much of a link between the bikes that were recommended and the output of that fit you had done.

12

where do you live?

13

You’re so kind. I’m inclined to ask, “How the hell does a fitter working on a Guru DFU end up with this nonsense?”

OP - you should get your money back. Your fitter doesn’t understand what they’re doing. There’s also no towel present, so you likely never worked hard enough to break a sweat. And I’ll go ahead and assume the crank length was never adjusted.
After demanding a refund, you should:

  1. Find a saddle that facilitates pelvic rotation, and then rotate.
  2. Slide your elbows about 2cm closer to the pads and then slide the pads another 2-3cm forward.
  3. Lower the pads 3 - 5cm.

^That is a better bike fit than you just likely paid hundreds of dollars for.

Sorry if that sounds harsh. I’m under the weather and tired of crappy bike fitters giving good bike fitters a bad name

14

Dang, just so frustrating. I’m more than tempted to just stick with the road bike at this point. The bike shops just want to sell. You search for a Guru fitter, been in business for a while, did F.I.S.T. training, is in the database here (I’m not naming names now, after all of this) and you still end up with crap.

Damn, just damn. I was excited, now, not so much.

I’m in Washington D.C.

If anyone has some advice on a good fitter, for a second opinion in the D.C. area, I’m open to suggestions. My efforts to try to find someone have obviously ended in Internet shame…

15

Dang, just so frustrating. I’m more than tempted to just stick with the road bike at this point. The bike shops just want to sell. You search for a Guru fitter, been in business for a while, did F.I.S.T. training, is in the database here (I’m not naming names now, after all of this) and you still end up with crap.

Damn, just damn. I was excited, now, not so much.

I’m in Washington D.C.

If anyone has some advice on a good fitter, for a second opinion in the D.C. area, I’m open to suggestions. My efforts to try to find someone have obviously ended in Internet shame…

I live in chapel hill if you fancy a drive down… or we could meet halfway somewhere. I can provide references ;). I can also drive to you.

edited to add: “Guru” or “Retul” or what have you… they’re just fancy rulers. There’s really no such thing as a Guru fitter. Just a fitter who does or does not know how to use his or her ruler.

Other than me I’d recommend ERO Pennsylvania as an option for you.

16

I’m in Richmond, and I’m independent.

Some photos
.

17

OP, problem solved, that is less than 5 hour drive to get it right.

Dang, just so frustrating. I’m more than tempted to just stick with the road bike at this point. The bike shops just want to sell. You search for a Guru fitter, been in business for a while, did F.I.S.T. training, is in the database here (I’m not naming names now, after all of this) and you still end up with crap.

Damn, just damn. I was excited, now, not so much.

I’m in Washington D.C.

If anyone has some advice on a good fitter, for a second opinion in the D.C. area, I’m open to suggestions. My efforts to try to find someone have obviously ended in Internet shame…

I live in chapel hill if you fancy a drive down… or we could meet halfway somewhere. I can provide references ;). I can also drive to you.

edited to add: “Guru” or “Retul” or what have you… they’re just fancy rulers. There’s really no such thing as a Guru fitter. Just a fitter who does or does not know how to use his or her ruler.

Other than me I’d recommend ERO Pennsylvania as an option for you.

18

he needs to do his due diligence first… I think that’s the lesson of this thread.

OP, problem solved, that is less than 5 hour drive to get it right.

Dang, just so frustrating. I’m more than tempted to just stick with the road bike at this point. The bike shops just want to sell. You search for a Guru fitter, been in business for a while, did F.I.S.T. training, is in the database here (I’m not naming names now, after all of this) and you still end up with crap.

Damn, just damn. I was excited, now, not so much.

I’m in Washington D.C.

If anyone has some advice on a good fitter, for a second opinion in the D.C. area, I’m open to suggestions. My efforts to try to find someone have obviously ended in Internet shame…

I live in chapel hill if you fancy a drive down… or we could meet halfway somewhere. I can provide references ;). I can also drive to you.

edited to add: “Guru” or “Retul” or what have you… they’re just fancy rulers. There’s really no such thing as a Guru fitter. Just a fitter who does or does not know how to use his or her ruler.

Other than me I’d recommend ERO Pennsylvania as an option for you.

19

Eric Reid would also be a great choice. After doing this for 10 years, I know of about 10 fitters I would recommend, and he’s one of them.

20

That’s totally fair and I agree.

he needs to do his due diligence first… I think that’s the lesson of this thread.

OP, problem solved, that is less than 5 hour drive to get it right.

Dang, just so frustrating. I’m more than tempted to just stick with the road bike at this point. The bike shops just want to sell. You search for a Guru fitter, been in business for a while, did F.I.S.T. training, is in the database here (I’m not naming names now, after all of this) and you still end up with crap.

Damn, just damn. I was excited, now, not so much.

I’m in Washington D.C.

If anyone has some advice on a good fitter, for a second opinion in the D.C. area, I’m open to suggestions. My efforts to try to find someone have obviously ended in Internet shame…

I live in chapel hill if you fancy a drive down… or we could meet halfway somewhere. I can provide references ;). I can also drive to you.

edited to add: “Guru” or “Retul” or what have you… they’re just fancy rulers. There’s really no such thing as a Guru fitter. Just a fitter who does or does not know how to use his or her ruler.

Other than me I’d recommend ERO Pennsylvania as an option for you.