Hi,
the frame shape of the new Specialized Shiv and the concept of aero bottles perfectly complementing the frame (e.g. P4-bottle) made me think:
If…
having a bottle like mentioned above is a good thing,
having a deep section up front (like a nose cone (old shiv) or a big fairing behind the steerer (new shiv tri)) is a good thing
and having your liquid nutrition close to your cockpit (maybe with a straw and on-the-fly re-filling) is a good thing…
why don’t we see bikes with P4-style aerobottles that directly fit into the front corner of the frame triangle? I guess you’d need a non-standard (higher up) position for the bottle-cage bosses and (to make the straw thing not disrupt aerodynamics) a hole trough the top tube. Refilling could be done from the side.
Wouldn’t this be more subtle than a bizarre-looking mega-down-tube and a bladder inside your frame? Not to mention that you could remove it when not needed.
Fire away with where I’m going wrong…
disclaimer: If any bike company steals this idea, I want a free superbike!!
edit: second disclaimer: I love my specialized bike, still really trying to like the new shiv as well…
Aero bottles are annoying to pick up and the air there is (I think) dirty to begin with so it might now matter a ton. And the shiv seems to be the only one who did it since they designed the cool bladder system. I haven’t even seen many p4’s rolling around with the aero bottle.
Hi,
the frame shape of the new Specialized Shiv and the concept of aero bottles perfectly complementing the frame (e.g. P4-bottle) made me think:
If…
having a bottle like mentioned above is a good thing,
having a deep section up front (like a nose cone (old shiv) or a big fairing behind the steerer (new shiv tri)) is a good thing
and having your liquid nutrition close to your cockpit (maybe with a straw and on-the-fly re-filling) is a good thing…
why don’t we see bikes with P4-style aerobottles that directly fit into the front corner of the frame triangle? I guess you’d need a non-standard (higher up) position for the bottle-cage bosses and (to make the straw thing not disrupt aerodynamics) a hole trough the top tube. Refilling could be done from the side.
Wouldn’t this be more subtle than a bizarre-looking mega-down-tube and a bladder inside your frame? Not to mention that you could remove it when not needed.
Fire away with where I’m going wrong…
disclaimer: If any bike company steals this idea, I want a free superbike!!
I always love these posts: Hey wouldn’t be great IF a product did this (insert random task)…OH, LOOK! I’ve designed one already, and you can buy it for $99.99! Plus shipping & handling…
It’s called viral marketing, and *everyone *is doing it…so why not just come out and say “Hey, look what I designed.” I know, I know, but then it won’t be cool and edgy.
ok, you got me:
Be ready,
coming to a trishop near you anytime now:
The new “Speed Spill”,
erm… i mean “Aero Drunk”, “Camelsack”, no wait… “Hydraero”, erm…
Not sure you’d want a water bottle made out of CFRP. You’d have to coat the inside with resin pretty good to prevent a silicosis type disease.
Odd fact: there is no name for the disease caused by inhaling carbon fiber dust. There are names for everything else but CFRP dust.
Coalworker’s pneumoconiosis (also known as “black lung” or anthracosis) - coal, carbonAsbestosis - asbestosSilicosis (also known as “grinder’s disease” or Potter’s rot) - silicaBauxite fibrosis - bauxiteBerylliosis - berylliumSiderosis - ironByssinosis - cottonSilicosiderosis - mixed dust containing silica and iron
Anyway, that’s probably why large scale manufacturing of CFRP water bottles hasn’t happened.
How do you know that someone hasn’t already tried that? How do you know if someone didn’t even try to make a fairing that was integrated into the frame that had a bladder? Cheetah cat bicycle has a bladder in it’s top tube.
Not trying to be a smart alleck here- but maybe what you propose has been tried. Or, you should learn how to build stuff and try it yourself. Maybe YOU would have the solution.
As long as everything in question was cleaned post-production, carbon dust isn’t going to be an issue. That being said- I would want a disposable bladder in anything carbon for many obvious reasons…
I think they’re coming. The p4 ‘frame bottle’ and shiv bladder are just the tip of the iceberg. I expect to see more and more ‘creative’ ways to store liquids in frames. Esp since Specialized set the precedent for saying ‘F U’ to the UCI
I think they’re coming. The p4 ‘frame bottle’ and shiv bladder are just the tip of the iceberg. I expect to see more and more ‘creative’ ways to store liquids in frames. Esp since Specialized set the precedent for saying ‘F U’ to the UCI
Not sure you’d want a water bottle made out of CFRP. You’d have to coat the inside with resin pretty good to prevent a silicosis type disease.
Odd fact: there is no name for the disease caused by inhaling carbon fiber dust. There are names for everything else but CFRP dust.
Coalworker’s pneumoconiosis (also known as “black lung” or anthracosis) - coal, carbon Asbestosis - asbestos Silicosis (also known as “grinder’s disease” or Potter’s rot) - silica Bauxite fibrosis - bauxite Berylliosis - beryllium Siderosis - iron Byssinosis - cotton Silicosiderosis - mixed dust containing silica and iron
Anyway, that’s probably why large scale manufacturing of CFRP water bottles hasn’t happened.
What? Im familiar with several of those diseases; two in particular in my PhD work in genetic toxicology. It is no problem making a container with any of those materials; be it thermoplastic or resin based (I would actually be more concerned by leaching from improperly cured resin than the fiber). The reason that water bottles are not typically made of CFRP is that it does not make any economical sense when you can just make them out of molded plastic and give them a carbon finish. The real problem with these types of diseases is in the manufacturing of them; where you can get the particulates in the right size and correct route of entry to cause harm.
The Shiv nosecone and the P4 bottle were basically lame attempts (IMO) to compensate for the limitations of making a UCI-compliant frame. They couldn’t make a deep section headtube, or fill in the BB area, so they just created extra pieces to justify filling the space.
Now that we are finally getting away from making bikes for triathletes UCI-compliant there isno need for these workarounds.
Personally I’d rather have my flat kit in the frame (Trimbles had a cargo hatch back in the day), and customize my hydration aftermarket.
Well, this is my area. Yes, you can make liquid tight containers from CFRP. Lord knows, I’ve done it. But there are some long term problems with the materials.
First, the resin systems can leach into water. Witness the problem with lexan leaching BPA. And it doesn’t take long, about 24 hours. And don’t forget there are multiple resin systems for CFRP, not just epoxy. But also Polyester and Vinyl Ester…thermoset AND thermoplastic. Choose your poison. Literally.
Then, assuming that you have selected the safest resin system, you have to worry about wear. Frequent removal of a top or lid can abrade the edges and expose the fibers. Ask anyone who’s used an old fiberglass kayak that’s starting to wear how fun that was. Answer: not very, you inevitably end up pulling small fibers out of your arms…Now imagine it’s your lips, instead.
So, if you REALLY want to do it, you’re going to have to coat the inside and some portion of the outside with a layer of HDPE, which is generally considered safe, although opinions vary. That extra resin layer adds weight, and you get back to the point where plastics alone might be better.
Well, this is my area. Yes, you can make liquid tight containers from CFRP. Lord knows, I’ve done it. But there are some long term problems with the materials.
First, the resin systems can leach into water. Witness the problem with lexan leaching BPA. And it doesn’t take long, about 24 hours. And don’t forget there are multiple resin systems for CFRP, not just epoxy. But also Polyester and Vinyl Ester…thermoset AND thermoplastic. Choose your poison. Literally.
Then, assuming that you have selected the safest resin system, you have to worry about wear. Frequent removal of a top or lid can abrade the edges and expose the fibers. Ask anyone who’s used an old fiberglass kayak that’s starting to wear how fun that was. Answer: not very, you inevitably end up pulling small fibers out of your arms…Now imagine it’s your lips, instead.
So, if you REALLY want to do it, you’re going to have to coat the inside and some portion of the outside with a layer of HDPE, which is generally considered safe, although opinions vary. That extra resin layer adds weight, and you get back to the point where plastics alone might be better.
