I think most have heard about the legendary 30 x 1000 that Erik Vendt did. For the record he did not do them on 10:00. Here’s a decent write up
While not the scope of the Vendt set, Bob Bowman provided some information on a Katie Hoff set: she did 8 x 300s on 3:20 and averaged 2:46. That’s the best I’ve ever heard of from a female….
shoved a granola bar down his throat
That’s awesome.
he was a really great swimmer. I tried to find videos of him at the end of his career in the mile but struggled to do so. watching the 2007 1500 final in melbourne he looked like the biggest and silkiest swimmer in the pool with his powerful stroke but he was probably the shortest. anyone who has any footage from erik vendt racing would be keen to see
Sometime in the 1986-92 period, Dave Wharton did a 16,000 IM as his main set, and it was literally 4000 fly, 4000 back, etc. He won a silver in the 400 IM at the ‘88 Olys.
Was so lost, his record for 1500 being around 15min but doing multiple consecutive 1000s in under 10min in training
No units mentioned anywhere
Ya, units, units, UNITS, as my professors used to say. You have prob figured this out already but, for those still lost, Eric Vendt’s 1500 LCM best time was 14:50-ish vs his 30 x 1000 SCY leaving on an average of about 10:15. Thus he averaged about 1:00 per 100 SCY in the 30 x 1000 vs about 59.5 in his 1500 LCM.
From the mid 2000s USA had some classy freestylers. Erik and Larsen are my favourite from USA from that time.
My fav D swimmer from the past 25 yrs is Ous Mellouli. He has a very long, very smooth stroke which I try to emulate. 
So…if you knew it couldn’t have been LCM…. what exactly confused that resulted in you being, “so lost?”
Vendt’s set is definitely legendary, but at the end of the the day who knows how much of that 30x1000 was actually transferable to the medals he won in the 400 IM or 4x200 Free relay. There are guys out there crushing quality like you wouldn’t believe these days on less total volume but potentially even higher total output.
I will raise you this: Ian Thorpe did a 3000m for time and went well under 31 minutes (rumors range from 30:15-30:45, either way around 1:01 for 100m), thinking this was the entire practice, so really worked it quite well to an honest effort, and then his coach surprised him with 30x100 best average. I’m sure it was a potent stimulus, but undermined the trust in their relationship.
Michael Phelps has done a 5000 yard Free for time in a 46:34, a 55.88/100 or 9:20 per 1,000 average, probably like 10:25 per 1000 in meters (1:02.5/100).
When Ous Mellouli was training with Dave Salo, I don’t think he was doing Erik Vendt sets.
Here’s an example session (LCM):
2x Rounds of
800 on 10:00 / 9:20
2x400 on 5:00 / 4:40
4x200 on 2:30 / 2:20
“Only” a 4800m set.
I think those legendary sets and basically for the mind and not the body. Of course it’s a great day of logging a big training effect, but it is a lifetime of having that hardwired into your training brain.
And you are right in that today’s swimmers are getting more done with less. But that less includes all the advancements in training tools, and the knowledge that it is actually possible. The USRPT dynamic that showed up awhile ago was the precursor for this, and now we have a WR holder going faster than anyone ever, by a lot, and doing 3k to 5k a week.. And the distance events are becoming more like middle, so the training is trending more like the old sprint squads. I mean you have guys going faster in the last 50 of a 1500 now than the guys in the 200. Everyone needs speed to win these days..
Seems people are posting epic workouts, not necessarily best.
When I was swimming in the 80’s there was a legend of Jeff Kostoff doing 5 x 5000 yds.
So our D team did it on the hour.
I survived it on the interval, but it was brutal.
And you prob did not take in any calories either, did you??? I’d say 25,000 yds in 5 hrs is roughly equal to, and maybe harder, than 112 mi on the bike in 5 hrs. I kinda think caloric intake is overrated, except in really long events like a full ironman or longer.
If you aren’t taking in carb calories, then you need to slow down to the speed of energy provided by fat oxidation. Versus if you have carbs, you can prevent glycogen depletion and maintain a higher output, which probably yields a better training effect. I’d say carb consumption is underrated in swimming.
Well, my experience has been that carb intake slows down glycogen depletion TO SOME DEGREE but far from totally. If it were otherwise, then guys could go on indefinitely with no loss of speed. I think the more you train the greater your ability to maintain a good pace w/o excess glycogen depletion b/c you have great fat metabolism. In the 5 x 5000 yd on the hour example, rumpled averaged 1:12/100 yd for 5 hours which is pretty impressive IMO.
One final thought: when you start a workout tired from previous days of training, even if you take in large amounts of carbs, you never get any faster or feel better. You’re just worn out and that is that.
Yeah exactly, and this idea of carbs sparing glycogen is still controversial. Biopsy studies show no difference in muscle glycogen depletion when fed, ie the extra energy output with carbs is due some kind of instantaneous reason - eg economy at lower RER or central governor whatnot, or covering for the liver (preventing brain bonk)
Yeah, no calories.
Mid 80’s. We didn’t have water bottles on the deck yet.
I probably got 2 or 3 gulps of water out of the drinking fountain all workout.
And being that you were there and done that, would you have rathered have the calories at your disposal?
Ya, that is what I thought. As far as I know, none of the top swimming programs tell their swimmers to be sure to bring carbs in their water bottle. I’ve never heard Bob Bowman say that “Oh yes, I always made sure Michael had carbs for his workouts, and I do the same now for Leon and Summer.”
Why do people take in carbs in workout or racing? Because there’s a benefit to it.
Just because swimming is behind other endurance sports doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a place, especially in training. You can have a competitive advantage by refeeding better during both training and competition sessions.
Carb intake does slow down glycogen depletion, to the degree of the carbs that you take in. You burn fast-digesting carbs preferentially. Blood sugar, muscle glycogen, it’s all an equilibrium.
It actively increases your training capacity by giving you more carbs to burn.
If you have 1200g of glycogen and burn 240g per hour, you bonk in 5 hours. If you take in 60g per hour you have 1200g + 60x5 = 1500g and bonk in 6.25 hours. You’ve increased capacity by 25%. OR you do your same 5 hours, preferentially burn your taken-in carbs, and maintain 300g of glycogen.
There is a real implication for performance there - not to mention, as you’ve identified - the mental benefits of focus from carb ingestion, and the compounding affect of being able to do more work. Even if you don’t ingest it, carb swishing is a real thing too. Or squirting water in your mouth so it’s not super dry.
You’ve never heard a top program tell a kid to drink Gatorade (carbs + electrolytes)?
There’s lots of stuff that Bob does that he doesn’t advertise but if you ask he would tell. Maybe you didn’t know he’d get bloodwork done on Michael for Creatine Kinase, or Hemoglobin, or Ferritin. Doesn’t mean he isn’t doing it. And that investment is larger than drinking water with some carbs. It’s a tool just like anything else.
Smart programs have kids eating fast carbs in workout, and more programs will in the future.