What physiological adaptation does motorpacing at 300W, 30 mph, 100rpm pushing a 53-12 provide that riding alone at 300W, 25mph, 100rpm pushing a 53-15 does not provide?
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WIth the moto, you can’t slack off.
I have wondered this myself. My buddies do it because its what they do in LA. or something to that effect.
i’ve not tried it. Sounds like a great way to hit the pavement.
WIth the moto, you can’t slack off.
That may be true, but the example I gave was of two individuals generating the same amount of power.
What physiological adaptation does motorpacing at 300W, 30 mph, 100rpm pushing a 53-12 provide that riding alone at 300W, 25mph, 100rpm pushing a 53-15 does not provide?
Not sure about physiological, but you are varying the rotational inertia when you use different gears, and that takes time to get used to even if you are laying down the same power at the same cadence and torque. Take your latter example to an extreme, you can also do 300W 12.5mph, 100rpm going up a 4.5% hill with a 39x25t, but do you believe it provides the same training benefit (physiological or otherwise) as doing 300W on flat roads?
Motorpacing is probably wasted time for triathletes, but for road racers, it simulates the effect of riding in a pack.
PS. 53-12 at 100rpm is ~35.5mph. 53-15 at 100rpm ~28.5mph
What physiological adaptation does motorpacing at 300W, 30 mph, 100rpm pushing a 53-12 provide that riding alone at 300W, 25mph, 100rpm pushing a 53-15 does not provide?
well the inertial loading would be different.
but really the point is motivation
Take your latter example to an extreme, you can also do 300W 12.5mph, 100rpm going up a 4.5% hill with a 39x25t, but do you believe it provides the same training benefit (physiological or otherwise) as doing 300W on flat roads?
to a close approximation yes.
What physiological adaptation does motorpacing at 300W, 30 mph, 100rpm pushing a 53-12 provide that riding alone at 300W, 25mph, 100rpm pushing a 53-15 does not provide?
Not sure about physiological, but you are varying the rotational inertia when you use different gears, and that takes time to get used to even if you are laying down the same power at the same cadence and torque. Take your latter example to an extreme, you can also do 300W 12.5mph, 100rpm going up a 4.5% hill with a 39x25t, but do you believe it provides the same training benefit (physiological or otherwise) as doing 300W on flat roads?
Motorpacing is probably wasted time for triathletes, but for road racers, it simulates the effect of riding in a pack.
PS. 53-12 at 100rpm is ~35.5mph. 53-15 at 100rpm ~28.5mph
OK the numbers were off, but you got the point.
Rotational inertia causes a big difference in the feel of those watts. I’ve never done motorpacing but I agree that 300 watts while chasing up a hill feels a lot different than 300 watts while hanging on to the back of a a group on flat ground. It would be interesting to see electromyographic studies of the cycling muscles in both scenarios and see if there are any significant differences (spinning vs mashing)
What physiological adaptation does motorpacing at 300W, 30 mph, 100rpm pushing a 53-12 provide that riding alone at 300W, 25mph, 100rpm pushing a 53-15 does not provide?
It is the combination of being in a draft and the constant changing of tempo that is great training for road racing.
For tri I could only speculate, no first hand knowledge.
-Physiojoe
What physiological adaptation does motorpacing at 300W, 30 mph, 100rpm pushing a 53-12 provide that riding alone at 300W, 25mph, 100rpm pushing a 53-15 does not provide?
It is the combination of being in a draft and the constant changing of tempo that is great training for road racing.
For tri I could only speculate, no first hand knowledge.
-Physiojoe
Yeah, I don’t think it would give any benefit for non drafting Tri training.
As far as for road, supposedly there are different adaptations when pushing a bigger gear and emulating riding in the draft at high speeds that you don’t get when riding alone at the same cadence but lower speed and different gearing.
How much of a difference it makes is another story, but apparantly the pro road cyclists include this as part of their training.
PS. 53-12 at 100rpm is ~35.5mph. 53-15 at 100rpm ~28.5mph
OK the numbers were off, but you got the point.
Rotational inertia causes a big difference in the feel of those watts. I’ve never done motorpacing but I agree that 300 watts while chasing up a hill feels a lot different than 300 watts while hanging on to the back of a a group on flat ground. It would be interesting to see electromyographic studies of the cycling muscles in both scenarios and see if there are any significant differences (spinning vs mashing)
Compare the pedal speed/pedal force plots for motorpacing at 300 watts and TT’ing at 300 watts.
Compare the pedal speed/pedal force plots for motorpacing at 300 watts and TT’ing at 300 watts.
Assuming you don’t start running out of gear during the motorpace, are they different?
I imagine the muscle activation patterns would be different but pedal speed/force could be the same.
well the inertial loading would be different.
but really the point is motivation
I’m betting this is the reason
the thing that motor pacing gives you is the draft. riding at 300w is still 300w UNTIL you only put out 275w and that draft disappears… now you have to put out 400w+ in hopes to regain that draft.
a motor pacing practice is not just “set it and forget it”. it includes accelerations and steady speeds as well.
it’s not just follow the leader like a triathlete would like to do. it would be handy to pad your weekly mile total though.
tim
(been shopping for a scooter for my wife to ride support on my long rides)
Compare the pedal speed/pedal force plots for motorpacing at 300 watts and TT’ing at 300 watts.
Assuming you don’t start running out of gear during the motorpace, are they different?
Yup.
I imagine the muscle activation patterns would be different but pedal speed/force could be the same.
Nope.
motorpacing probably has less benefits for triathletes. for road racers , its a very useful training technique.
I don’t train with power, so I can’t answer your question based on watts. but as a roadie, the main benefit of motorpacing is forcing you to reach a higher speed, which is especially useful for sprint training.
lets say hypothetically at a certain wattage (say 300) I can ride at 50kph. ( just throwing out numbers here, not sure if I really can. like I said, dont own a powermeter.) . However it’s going to cost me a heck load of energy and watts to reach that kind of speed. your legs might be screaming by the time you reach and hold that speed. it will be difficult to accelerate further.
However, if a motorbike takes me up to 50kph, it’s easier to do practise a ‘kick’ (i.e. to launch my sprint) to 55,60kph. think mark cavendish being launched by renshaw. it’s hard to explain, but it’s sort of like being able to run your intervals at a higher intensity because you’re fresh and havent had to run 10ks before that. the main advantage here would be training your muscles to be able to launch yourself at high speed. a teammate could do this for you too, but he’s going to be shellacked from all that work!
I know others use it for different purposes. for example it’s pretty hard to slack off if your coach is screaming at you from the back of the motorbike. but if you’re training at the same power, I can’t really see the difference it would make for a time trialist.
so people self select a different cadence at higher speed? ooor is it the force/pedal speed changes because the force is applied different within a single pedal revolution?
so people self select a different cadence at higher speed?
Well, it’s both cadence and pedal force – and it’s not just the higher speed (though that’s a lot of it), it’s the way the drag scales. For a TT the PV/PF plot looks like a tight cluster. For motorpacing, even at the same average power, it’s shifted to the right in PV and more variable in PF.
The general usage of a motopacer is rarely for steady-state training. You don’t do it simply to ride faster. You do it, very often, to simulate the stochastic nature of high speed riding without the required intensity at all times. I.e., it’s a way for a TT rider to mimic TT speeds without needing to put out TT watts, which as several benefits. One is that you get used to handling your bike at race speeds. Another is that on rolling terrain, the hills hit you harder, because gravity becomes a much bigger variable. I.e., you when are trying to maintain 30mph up a small rise, that’s a much different load if you are fighting gravity more than air resistance, so it can help with practice surging power over rolling terrain.
For a roadie, it’s a great way to mimic the speed of the pack - again, the increased importance of hammering over rollers - without needing a pack of riders.
So there are a bunch of different scenarios in which it is useful. Pushing a steady, constant 300w is not really one of them…
So, put simply, your hypothetical isn’t really an actual hypothetical when it comes to how motorpacing is actually used…
The general usage of a motopacer is rarely for steady-state training. You don’t do it simply to ride faster. You do it, very often, to simulate the stochastic nature of high speed riding without the required intensity at all times. I.e., it’s a way for a TT rider to mimic TT speeds without needing to put out TT watts, which as several benefits. One is that you get used to handling your bike at race speeds. Another is that on rolling terrain, the hills hit you harder, because gravity becomes a much bigger variable. I.e., you when are trying to maintain 30mph up a small rise, that’s a much different load if you are fighting gravity more than air resistance, so it can help with practice surging power over rolling terrain.
For a roadie, it’s a great way to mimic the speed of the pack - again, the increased importance of hammering over rollers - without needing a pack of riders.
So there are a bunch of different scenarios in which it is useful. Pushing a steady, constant 300w is not really one of them…
So, put simply, your hypothetical isn’t really an actual hypothetical when it comes to how motorpacing is actually used…
^^^ This.