Has anyone else experienced the following during off-season running base training:
Lately, and for the next several weeks, I have been, and will be, concentrating at keeping my HR below 146 for the duration of my 10k runs. 145 bpm is 80% of predicted max for me (183 bpm). The problem I find is that in order to do this, my pace needs to be ridiculously slow (10:00/miles) which is very difficult to maintain as it’s more of a jog than a run and, accordingly, my strides are somewhat unnatural.
A few years back I was at a forum where Mark Allen was speaking and he told me that it was imperative to proper base training that I be disciplined in keeping my HR below the targeted level. He said walk if necessary, but don’t go above it until I completed my base training phase. Several recent articles I have read have also reinforced what was told to me.
I guess my question is should I continue my current base training regimen or am I misinformed and it’s okay to occassionally go harder even during off-season base training?
I’m just a hack triathlete, but I’ve always wondered what the benefit is of doing 10:00 miles if you can hold an easy 8:00 pace and will race 10k’s at 6:00-6:30. It seems stupid to train SOOOOO slow. It just doesn’t make common sense.
It feels like jogging because it is jogging. I spend most of my training at 10 min mile pace and can confirm it. 80% of your max is actually pretty high for base work. I suggest you take smaller steps, it’s pretty easy to maintain running/jogging form down as low as 4 mph if the steps are small enough.
In base at least, running frequncy is more important than intensity.
This is my opinion, I am not a doctor or a coach and not qualified to answer this question in any way.
You shouldn’t be basing your training zones off of a predicted max. I’m guessing that since you are using 183, you are 37 years old and did the 220-age thing. I believe that formula would be used for someone that hasn’t done any exercise for quite some time.
I am also 37 and I can get way over 183, in fact, I did a run lactate thresh hold test 2 weeks ago and averaged 179 for 20 minutes and had a high of 186. Playing hockey I’ve gotten well over 200.
My suggestion is to do a 30 min running time trial as fast as you can consistantly run and get the ave heart rate of the last 20 minutes of the test. That will be very near your LTHR and you can base your training zones from there. You can look up the training zones from the Training bible, Going Long or the Tri-Geeks Spreadsheet.
Also, you can get the average running rate in min/mile and multiply that by 1.25 to get the average rate to run base at.
If you can run 6-6:30’s OFF THE BIKE, then you should be training near that speed and sometimes above.
Alot of people can run 6-6:30 in an open 10k, but can only run 8’s in a tri. It happens in every race from sprints to IM.
Those people should not be running 6’s in training until their bike strength is high enough to support their run ability. Their limiter is the ability to get off the bike fresh/strong enough to use their speed. So they need more time on the bike and if they want to run 6’s right now the to slow down on the bike.
That’s the difference between training for triathlon and training to swim, bike, and run.
For running I would go with the perceived exertion method. The only time I would run slow, 8+ minute miles, is if I was doing a recovery run. Even then I base my speed on perceived exertion and it is probably closer to 7 minute miles. Running slowly will never make you a fast runner. If you want to build up mileage, I would leave the heart rate monitor at home and run at a comfortable pace. Then increase mileage by 10-15% a week. Who cares how fast your heart is beating?
“The problem I find is that in order to do this, my pace needs to be ridiculously slow (10:00/miles)”
I think you answered your question there - the only reason to go so slow would be if you had a very low level of fitness or were just starting, but even then just let your percieved exhertion guide you. If it feels to hard, then it probably is. If it feels like you are forcing yourself to run slower than what you could run at a reasonable effort then it doesn’t make sense. There is no benefit keeping your hrt under some artificial ceiling like this. Going so slow just reduces the training “dose”, the benefits of which are marginal as compared to a proper aerobic base effort.
There’s nothing wrong with having some intensity in your base phase, especially for athletes in colder climates where time is limited. For all of my athletes I schedule fartlek and steady state workouts throughout the base phases in prep for specific training prior to racing. There is no reason to be afraid of “speed work” - just vary the duration to keep the training at a dose you can recover from.
Many athletes don’t improve much year to year IMO as they spend so much of their time doing active recovery level training rather than appropriate levels.
how did you get your predicted max? i’m following allen/maffetone methods via brad kearns by training exclusively at 80% of my max for 3 months. and i’m in the same boat as you running very slowly. i do a MAF test every 3-4 weeks to make sure i’m making progress. after 3 months i will do 6 weeks of anerobic work. i know you’ll get a lot of conflicting advice here. i think you just need to try it, test and see if it’s working for you.
The number I stated is my predicted max based off of the various Polar tests you can do. Realistically, it’s probably a few beats higher, but since I am not an elite athlete, a small MFE is not going to be really material on the larger scale. Additionally, I am trying to keep it a couple of beats lower than 80% to take that into account.
Your program is very similar to mine. Three months of aerobic work followed by increasing intensity, although I don’t think I will go with six weeks of pure anaerobic work, but will build slightly slower.
You are correct that opinions vary. However, several years ago, when I was cycling exclusively, I trained using this same method on the bike. All winter long of low intensity rides. When the late Spring came, I was flying and it really paid off through the Summer. I have read enough and spoken to enough people to be confident in the base building program vs. perceived exertion. I think the latter is good, but at a later point in the training cycle. I agree with some posters who say if you train slow, you will race slow. That is absolutely true, but my concern is for the first three months of the year.
I asked the original question because you never know if there’s better information out there.
I certainly did notice. What I noticed even more was that his advice was given in a helpful, suggestive manner – not in an empty, sarcastic manner like somebody else responding to this thread. Thanks for the cyncism but I get enough of it at work.
A few years back I was at a forum where Mark Allen was speaking and he told me that it was imperative to proper base training that I be disciplined in keeping my HR below the targeted level.
I have to think that if the goal of your training is to keep your heartrate below a certain level, your plan must be to run (jog) for a really, really long time. Another poster mentioned that during base training, frequency is more important than intensity. I’d say that Mark Allen’s advice here is only suitable if the *duration *is quite long.
Chris, I’m not a coach, but czone is a dang-good one (at least, by the accounts of many that he coaches). I’m of the opinion that his advice is really good. Unless you are really putting in big volumes of training time, most of us athletes that have been doing SOMETHING for years don’t benefit much from the artificially very slow training. I put in only a couple of 12 hour-a-week training sessions in preparation for my first Iron Distance race. For many people, 12 hours in a week is an off-season workload.
I did the 12 hours in the commonly prescribed long/slow training mode…because that’s what I understood the majority of advice to be in order to survive an Iron distance race. In spite of having a really good time, I’ll not follow that advice again…at least, not as long as a couple of 12 hour weeks are my “BIG” weeks. It’s just not enough time to really burn myself to a crisp by doing my “normal” intensity workouts, and I lost a lot of fitness by going artificially slow. I’ll probably do the same Iron distance race this year, and I’ll not do any training as slow as I did last year. I’ll still probably only get a couple of 12 hour weeks in, and I’ll bet I’m much faster this year.
A buddy of mine prepared for this same Iron-distance race by riding a long ride of 28 miles a few times…he did it wide open, and ran some afterward. Otherwise, he trains fairly hard and very consistantly, and he beat me by 50 minutes…on shorter races, we’re neck and neck…the biggest difference is that this was his 11th Ironman, so he knew how hard to ride/run during the race, and he’s tried the slow method and the harder method, and finds the harder/shorter method works best for him…as I mentioned, probably because we don’t train enough volume to get cooked.
Faster training works better for those of us with limited training time. That doesn’t mean to do intervals every time, but, I don’t worry about my HR so much. It’s taken me several months to get my leg speed back up to my normal after a summer with so much slower training, but, my speed is coming back. Finally. Now, I think I might do OK on the short courses again this year, but, I was really concerned for a while…especially about my standalone time trial speed.
Thanks. Your comments were very insightful and picked up some key points that I have observed in my own training. I have been slower following slow training periods and faster following harder ones, but I was unsure about what was the best way to tackle the off season. After reading your post, a lot of things clicked. Thanks again.
I agree it doesn’t really make sense, however, trust me, you will reap the rewards of it later in the season. Too many people try to do too much hard stuff too early in the season and burn out. Either mentally, or their body simply can’t take going hard for 8-10 months. Get that aerobic base on now while the weather is crappy (for most of us ) and you will be able to do some better quality workouts come spring/summer. I was a non believer as well until my coach showed me though results. This isn’t to say to not do any speed work, you should, but the body needs those LSD’s for lots of reasons. My body thanks me after my 3-4 hour CT ride at well below Zone 1-2. It feels really good.
I just don’t buy that. Well below Z1-2 would give me near-zero benefit. I spent much (>90%) of my hours last season riding in Z2… what a waste. I barely made a dent in my fitness, and I was just starting up (38yrs at the time, long layoff, physically active but not in formal cardio).
I learned more about this stuff when I went to power training. the “easy” power levels resulted in HRs well above corresponding HR zones. Voila. I’m only maybe 5 months into power training, and I’ve already made more gains than I did in my first full year of HR-based training. I believe that’s because I was training too easily, based on HR.
Anyway, I’m not suggesting a fellow newcomer go blasting down the road at a huge pace all the time, but rather that a mix of intensities for so-called “base” training makes more sense to me.
It seems a lot of people approach higher intensity training in the off/base season as a balck or white situation. Either slogging long at a slow pace all winter or frying yourself to a crisp with high intensity work. I’ve done both but I have been most successful with a moderated approach. In the off/base season I do no more or no less than 5 - 10% of my total workout time at high intensity, the rest easy to moderate aerobic. My average week during the winter is 5 hours/bike, 3 hours run. This means only 15 - 30 minutes on the bike and 9 - 18 on the run. When I do the hard stuff, I do it HARD. I’ve had success with an inverted pyramid and this time of year finds me doing Vo2 max intervals on the bike and hill reps and 30/30 sessions on the run, progresssing later to threshold and more race specific workouts. The overall volume of hi intensity is low enough that itdoes not fry me and the benefit at this time of year is that it really boosts your aerobic training pace. A 3 hour ride at 230 watts used to be a solid workout. Now, in the middle of winter I can handle 250 watts easily with my HR barely in Z2 and I still have a lot of room to improve as the weather gets better and the days longer.
My advice is don’t be afraid of the hard stuff. As with everything, just use a little common sense and don’t get sucked into the view that if a little is good, a lot would be better. Plenty of time to kick it up later. Of course this approach is most appropriate for an athlete with a solid base, not a beginer.
