Are you cissexist?

The Coffee Shop
21

That’s a good question. A hard one to answer, specifically. It’s probably easier to identify things that aren’t reasonable expectations than it is to set clear boundaries as to what is, or are.

Naturally, I think my views, attitudes, and actions in this area, are appropriate. I would (do) call them by their preferred name. I wouldn’t exclude a trans person from my personal circle of friends or family or associations because of their trans status. I wouldn’t shield my children from their existence based on their trans status. I would argue that they should be allowed to marry the person of their preference. I would treat them with the same courtesy, respect, and dignity I afford everyone as a condition of their humanity, only to be revoked if their actions warrant it.

I do not think it’s a reasonable expectation to demand that other people contort their reality to fit the trans person’s view of it, and demand that they be called by whatever pronoun they feel suits them, or to insist that anything short of society identifying and treating them as no different from other members of their chosen gender (reference bathroom/shower facility usage, athletic competitions, etc.) properly defines “transphobia.” And I certainly wouldn’t consider applying the force of law to that agenda via hate crime/speech legislation to be a reasonable action, either.

That’s a general starting point, anyway.

You started off decently enough, but purposely mis-gendering people is transphobic behavior.

22

I agree with this. I used to care what people said, then I realized that it’s their issue, not mine so I usually let it go

Some people just like to use derogatory terms or wrong pronouns, so be it.

I really wasn’t asking to be argumentative or in the rhetorical sense. Presuming that by “wrong pronoun” you mean, calling a trans person by the gender pronoun that corresponds with their physical gender at birth, rather than the one they prefer…you equate that with being derogatory. Granted, pleasantries like “thank you” and “you’re welcome” can be used as a weapon depending on context and tone, but I suspect you don’t differentiate.

Do you feel at all conflicted over the idea that people who resist being told to redefine what Woman and Man, mean, categorically, are trying to denigrate or insult you? I accept trans people for who they are, and don’t form any judgments about them whatsoever on that fact alone. I strenuously oppose them being removed from the military, and support them having the freedom to marry whomever they choose. At the same time, I don’t refer to a transgender person born male but living as female by a female pronoun. I avoid using pronouns in their presence for that reason, out of sensitivity. I refer to someone in that situation (born male, living female) as a transgender man, not transgender woman.

I understand that trans persons want full acceptance as members of the gender they identify with, but the reality is, they’re not, and they never will be. They’re trans, and that’s okay. And being okay, it should be okay to describe them in those terms, rather than forcing others to redefine what Woman and Man mean, or being labeled as a transphobe or bigot because we both acknowledge and fully accept them for who they, in reality, are.

To describe the above as phobic attitudes or behavior is to strip the term of all meaning.

23

When would you disclose?

Kids?

I’d say, “I have a son who’s xx years old” at some point in making arraignments for the first date.

My drinking past?

Probably would come up during dinner when drinks are ordered.

“I’ll have a soda water.”

“Not drinking tonight.”

“I haven’t had a drink in xx years.”

24

When would you disclose? Does it vary on the situation? E.g. Personally I’d certainly expect kids or a previous addiction to get mentioned fairly early in a relationship, but wouldn’t bother me if it didn’t come up in the first few dates/meetings as long as there wasn’t outright deception about it.

I think somebody either not being the biological gender I was expecting, or having changed biological gender (if I’m using the wrong vocabulary here it’s through ignorance, not intent) would be something I’d expect to be disclosed on the first meeting.e I suspect it would be a much bigger deal breaker for most people in terms of having a romantic relationship than kids or an addiction would b.

Most people are attracted to people of the opposite sex. I can still be attracted to a woman whether she has kids or a history of addiction. While those are concerns, they aren’t deal breakers.** Having a dick, or having had one - that is definitely a deal breaker that should be disclosed at the beginning**.

+1
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Ad Muncher

25

To describe the above as phobic attitudes or behavior is to strip the term of all meaning.

We’re well past that point. Phobic is almost like “…ist.” As in Racist, Sexist, etc. I suspect that’s exactly why the person in the OP’s video is using the term cissexist. It paints the typical person as being evil or wrongheaded, and the trans person as the victim.

26

Right. Which is why I put the question to Nova as I did. At some point along the way, decent people must experience some discomfort in treating people on their side as the enemy, simply because they’re not pushing the same agenda to the same extremes. Treating trans people with the same love and respect as everyone else should be the goal. Demanding that people erase all distinctions between a trans male living as a woman, and a woman, really has no logical place in that activism, and pretending that it does is what leads people to absurd positions like the video in the OP, and the argument that trans people are under no obligation to disclose their trans status to potential love interests.

27

I agree with this. I used to care what people said, then I realized that it’s their issue, not mine so I usually let it go

Some people just like to use derogatory terms or wrong pronouns, so be it.

I really wasn’t asking to be argumentative or in the rhetorical sense. Presuming that by “wrong pronoun” you mean, calling a trans person by the gender pronoun that corresponds with their physical gender at birth, rather than the one they prefer…you equate that with being derogatory. Granted, pleasantries like “thank you” and “you’re welcome” can be used as a weapon depending on context and tone, but I suspect you don’t differentiate.

Do you feel at all conflicted over the idea that people who resist being told to redefine what Woman and Man, mean, categorically, are trying to denigrate or insult you? I accept trans people for who they are, and don’t form any judgments about them whatsoever on that fact alone. I strenuously oppose them being removed from the military, and support them having the freedom to marry whomever they choose. At the same time, I don’t refer to a transgender person born male but living as female by a female pronoun. I avoid using pronouns in their presence for that reason, out of sensitivity. I refer to someone in that situation (born male, living female) as a transgender man, not transgender woman.

I understand that trans persons want full acceptance as members of the gender they identify with, but the reality is, they’re not, and they never will be. They’re trans, and that’s okay. And being okay, it should be okay to describe them in those terms, rather than forcing others to redefine what Woman and Man mean, or being labeled as a transphobe or bigot because we both acknowledge and fully accept them for who they, in reality, are.

To describe the above as phobic attitudes or behavior is to strip the term of all meaning.

Why?

Everything you said prior to the bolded is BS.

28

Why?
I’ve explained why. I use pronouns in the conventional sense, to identify someone by their biological, chromosomal, phenotypic being, not by how someone chooses to express their psychological gender identity. I understand that it’s upsetting for trans people to hear this, and so I don’t use them in their presence. In those rare instances, I refer to them by their chosen name.

Everything you said prior to the bolded is BS.

You mean this?

I really wasn’t asking to be argumentative or in the rhetorical sense. Presuming that by “wrong pronoun” you mean, calling a trans person by the gender pronoun that corresponds with their physical gender at birth, rather than the one they prefer…you equate that with being derogatory. Granted, pleasantries like “thank you” and “you’re welcome” can be used as a weapon depending on context and tone, but I suspect you don’t differentiate.

Do you feel at all conflicted over the idea that people who resist being told to redefine what Woman and Man, mean, categorically, are trying to denigrate or insult you? I accept trans people for who they are, and don’t form any judgments about them whatsoever on that fact alone. I strenuously oppose them being removed from the military, and support them having the freedom to marry whomever they choose.

BS, how? If you mean, untrue, then you’re wrong, and demonstrably so, as it pertains to my positions regarding trans rights and beliefs, which I’ve expressed many times here. If you’re referring to the part where I asked the question about how you feel about people like me, who support trans rights and acceptance, being labeled “transphobic” because of my preference for the conventional definitions of Man and Woman, and pronoun usage that reflects that, please correct me if I made a false assumption.

29

Why?
I’ve explained why. I use pronouns in the conventional sense, to identify someone by their biological, chromosomal, phenotypic being, not by how someone chooses to express their psychological gender identity. I understand that it’s upsetting for trans people to hear this, and so I don’t use them in their presence. In those rare instances, I refer to them by their chosen name.

Everything you said prior to the bolded is BS.

You mean this?

I really wasn’t asking to be argumentative or in the rhetorical sense. Presuming that by “wrong pronoun” you mean, calling a trans person by the gender pronoun that corresponds with their physical gender at birth, rather than the one they prefer…you equate that with being derogatory. Granted, pleasantries like “thank you” and “you’re welcome” can be used as a weapon depending on context and tone, but I suspect you don’t differentiate.

Do you feel at all conflicted over the idea that people who resist being told to redefine what Woman and Man, mean, categorically, are trying to denigrate or insult you? I accept trans people for who they are, and don’t form any judgments about them whatsoever on that fact alone. I strenuously oppose them being removed from the military, and support them having the freedom to marry whomever they choose.

BS, how? If you mean, untrue, then you’re wrong, and demonstrably so, as it pertains to my positions regarding trans rights and beliefs, which I’ve expressed many times here. If you’re referring to the part where I asked the question about how you feel about people like me, who support trans rights and acceptance, being labeled “transphobic” because of my preference for the conventional definitions of Man and Woman, and pronoun usage that reflects that, please correct me if I made a false assumption.

You’re saying two different things and acting as if they were one. You aren’t as accepting as you say if you can’t even be bothered to call someone by something as mundane as a pronoun. I’ve been living this ridiculous life for more than 5 years now and I’ve come to three conclusions.

  1. There are those that accept.
  2. There are those that “say” they accept, but don’t.
  3. Those that don’t accept.

The lines are clear and straight. You are either in, or out. No half way, no yes to this and no to that. So when you go through all the I accept this and that rhetoric and then can’t be bothered to call someone by the pronoun they want, then you’re out. It’s simple, cut and dry.

You can argue your point all you want, but I’m willing to bet you don’t even know a trans person.

30

If it’s mundane as you suggest, it’s rather odd that you’d see that as a delineation point between supporters and the opposition, disregarding all other considerations and positions.

"The lines are clear and straight. You are either in, or out. No half way, no yes to this and no to that. "

Loud and clear. Good luck with that.

31
  1. There are those that accept.
  2. There are those that “say” they accept, but don’t.
  3. Those that don’t accept.

This is the exact problem that was discussed earlier. The requirement for some transgender people is that “acceptance” means adopting their altered view of reality. A transgendered man is still a man, regardless of the fact that he self-identifies as a woman and alters his appearance and even might alter his body. That is a transgender man, not a woman.

I, sphere (I think), and many people are perfectly happy to accept that transgender man for who he is. But who he is, is a transgender man, not a woman.

What many transgender people want (and you, it seems), is not acceptance for who the transgender man is, but for people to indulge in the altered reality of that person. The two are not the same thing.

If a white person decides he identifies as black, and wants to dress, act, and interact in such a way as to identify with black culture, and even goes so far as to tint his skin, he is still a white person. I can accept him for who he is (a white person who thinks he’s black), without any requirement that I also view him as an actual black person, and without any requirement that I humor his choice as if it represented reality.

32
  1. There are those that accept.
  2. There are those that “say” they accept, but don’t.
  3. Those that don’t accept.

This is the exact problem that was discussed earlier. The requirement for some transgender people is that “acceptance” means adopting their altered view of reality. A transgendered man is still a man, regardless of the fact that he self-identifies as a woman and alters his appearance and even might alter his body. That is a transgender man, not a woman.

**I, sphere (I think), and many people are perfectly happy to accept that transgender man for who he is. But who he is, is a transgender man, not a woman. **

What many transgender people want (and you, it seems), is not acceptance for who the transgender man is, but for people to indulge in the altered reality of that person. The two are not the same thing.

If a white person decides he identifies as black, and wants to dress, act, and interact in such a way as to identify with black culture, and even goes so far as to tint his skin, he is still a white person. I can accept him for who he is (a white person who thinks he’s black), without any requirement that I also view him as an actual black person, and without any requirement that I humor his choice as if it represented reality.

Then that’s not accepting.

Way back when it would have bothered me, but I’ve grown out of it. I really don’t care if you accept or not. Just be real to yourself and say you don’t. Why the half assed I accept, BUT stuff. Just say you don’t. That kind of lying does get to me. Not because you’re lying to me, I don’t matter, but because you are lying to yourself.

Thank you for proving my three rules though.

I bet you don’t know a trans person either.

33
  1. There are those that accept.
  2. There are those that “say” they accept, but don’t.
  3. Those that don’t accept.

This is the exact problem that was discussed earlier. The requirement for some transgender people is that “acceptance” means adopting their altered view of reality. A transgendered man is still a man, regardless of the fact that he self-identifies as a woman and alters his appearance and even might alter his body. That is a transgender man, not a woman.

**I, sphere (I think), and many people are perfectly happy to accept that transgender man for who he is. But who he is, is a transgender man, not a woman. **

What many transgender people want (and you, it seems), is not acceptance for who the transgender man is, but for people to indulge in the altered reality of that person. The two are not the same thing.

If a white person decides he identifies as black, and wants to dress, act, and interact in such a way as to identify with black culture, and even goes so far as to tint his skin, he is still a white person. I can accept him for who he is (a white person who thinks he’s black), without any requirement that I also view him as an actual black person, and without any requirement that I humor his choice as if it represented reality.

Then that’s not accepting.

Way back when it would have bothered me, but I’ve grown out of it. I really don’t care if you accept or not. Just be real to yourself and say you don’t. Why the half assed I accept, BUT stuff. Just say you don’t. That kind of lying does get to me. Not because you’re lying to me, I don’t matter, but because you are lying to yourself.

Thank you for proving my three rules though.

I bet you don’t know a trans person either.

The problem is not that I or sphere are not accepting of transgender people. The problem is that your definition of “accepting” is bogus. I can accept a person without agreeing with them. Maybe you’re incapable of that, but I suspect not. There are people who honestly think the Earth is flat. I can accept them for who they are without having to actually agree that the world is flat whenever I’m around them.

34
  1. There are those that accept.
  2. There are those that “say” they accept, but don’t.
  3. Those that don’t accept.

This is the exact problem that was discussed earlier. The requirement for some transgender people is that “acceptance” means adopting their altered view of reality. A transgendered man is still a man, regardless of the fact that he self-identifies as a woman and alters his appearance and even might alter his body. That is a transgender man, not a woman.

**I, sphere (I think), and many people are perfectly happy to accept that transgender man for who he is. But who he is, is a transgender man, not a woman. **

What many transgender people want (and you, it seems), is not acceptance for who the transgender man is, but for people to indulge in the altered reality of that person. The two are not the same thing.

If a white person decides he identifies as black, and wants to dress, act, and interact in such a way as to identify with black culture, and even goes so far as to tint his skin, he is still a white person. I can accept him for who he is (a white person who thinks he’s black), without any requirement that I also view him as an actual black person, and without any requirement that I humor his choice as if it represented reality.

Then that’s not accepting.

Way back when it would have bothered me, but I’ve grown out of it. I really don’t care if you accept or not. Just be real to yourself and say you don’t. Why the half assed I accept, BUT stuff. Just say you don’t. That kind of lying does get to me. Not because you’re lying to me, I don’t matter, but because you are lying to yourself.

Thank you for proving my three rules though.

I bet you don’t know a trans person either.

The problem is not that I or sphere are not accepting of transgender people. The problem is that your definition of “accepting” is bogus. I can accept a person without agreeing with them. Maybe you’re incapable of that, but I suspect not. There are people who honestly think the Earth is flat. I can accept them for who they are without having to actually agree that the world is flat whenever I’m around them.

a·gree
əˈɡrē/
verb

1.
have the same opinion about something; concur.
“I completely agree with your recent editorial”

ac·cept

2.
believe or come to recognize (an opinion, explanation, etc.) as valid or correct.
“this tentative explanation came to be accepted by the group”

NOT the same! You not only do not agree that the world is flat, but you do not accept the notion that it is flat.

35
  1. There are those that accept.
  2. There are those that “say” they accept, but don’t.
  3. Those that don’t accept.

This is the exact problem that was discussed earlier. The requirement for some transgender people is that “acceptance” means adopting their altered view of reality. A transgendered man is still a man, regardless of the fact that he self-identifies as a woman and alters his appearance and even might alter his body. That is a transgender man, not a woman.

**I, sphere (I think), and many people are perfectly happy to accept that transgender man for who he is. But who he is, is a transgender man, not a woman. **

What many transgender people want (and you, it seems), is not acceptance for who the transgender man is, but for people to indulge in the altered reality of that person. The two are not the same thing.

If a white person decides he identifies as black, and wants to dress, act, and interact in such a way as to identify with black culture, and even goes so far as to tint his skin, he is still a white person. I can accept him for who he is (a white person who thinks he’s black), without any requirement that I also view him as an actual black person, and without any requirement that I humor his choice as if it represented reality.

Then that’s not accepting.

Way back when it would have bothered me, but I’ve grown out of it. I really don’t care if you accept or not. Just be real to yourself and say you don’t. Why the half assed I accept, BUT stuff. Just say you don’t. That kind of lying does get to me. Not because you’re lying to me, I don’t matter, but because you are lying to yourself.

Thank you for proving my three rules though.

I bet you don’t know a trans person either.

The problem is not that I or sphere are not accepting of transgender people. The problem is that your definition of “accepting” is bogus. I can accept a person without agreeing with them. Maybe you’re incapable of that, but I suspect not. There are people who honestly think the Earth is flat. I can accept them for who they are without having to actually agree that the world is flat whenever I’m around them.

a·gree
əˈɡrē/
verb

1.
have the same opinion about something; concur.
“I completely agree with your recent editorial”

ac·cept

2.
believe or come to recognize (an opinion, explanation, etc.) as valid or correct.
“this tentative explanation came to be accepted by the group”

NOT the same! You not only do not agree that the world is flat, but you do not accept the notion that it is flat.

I’m not being asked to accept the notion. I’m being asked to accept the person. I accept, recognize, and believe that a transgender person is a valid person, and deserving of the same rights and respect as any other person. That isn’t the same as accepting the premise that a transgender man is actually a woman.

36

I accept, recognize, and believe that a transgender person is a valid person, and deserving of the same rights and respect as any other person.

That’s not enough.

You must accept their delusions and never criticize them in any way, even if the criticism is unrelated to their trans status.

Trans people are Perfect and there cannot possibly exist a trans person who is, say, an asshole, a liar, a criminal or (absolutely beyond all doubt) a crazy person. Nope. Never.

Being friends with a trans person isn’t enough. Having trans people regularly over to your house for dinner is not enough.

You’re a bigot for not pretending a man is a woman.

You need to get your mind right.

37

I believe in showing love and respect to everyone but even the idea of “a woman with a penis” and “genital preferences” is illogical. People have taken the “born this way” argument successfully used by homosexuals and are trying to apply to any abnormal lifestyle or mental state. If you live in a free country do whatever you want, but don’t expect everyone else to feel the same way about your choices that you do especially when those choices contradict biology and science.

38

I accept, recognize, and believe that a transgender person is a valid person, and deserving of the same rights and respect as any other person.

That’s not enough.

You must accept their delusions and never criticize them in any way, even if the criticism is unrelated to their trans status.

Trans people are Perfect and there cannot possibly exist a trans person who is, say, an asshole, a liar, a criminal or (absolutely beyond all doubt) a crazy person. Nope. Never.

Being friends with a trans person isn’t enough. Having trans people regularly over to your house for dinner is not enough.

You’re a bigot for not pretending a man is a woman.

You need to get your mind right.

I agree! It’s like when a woman wants to be referred to as “Ms.” and it’s up to me to point out that for centuries we called unmarried women “Miss” and married women “Mrs.” You don’t get to redefine what society calls you. You’re either “Miss” or “Mrs.” There isn’t something else, no matter what the left says. I don’t agree with supporting those women’s delusion that they should be called something else.

I have nothing against these women. They can live however they want. I’m even very sensitive about their desire to be called “Ms.” I always ask a woman when I first meet her if she’s married or not, and then I use the correct appellation. If she wants to be called “Ms.” I make sure to just call her “you” or “lady,” but I sure as hell won’t call her “Ms.” It’s just not right.

And don’t get me started on married women who like to be called “Miss.” That’s like lying.

39

Nova continues to reference whether we actually know a trans person, as though it matters a whit. It matters to Nova because Nova presumes we’d change our thinking based on some perceived increase in understanding and empathy. It’s the insurmountable obstacle in Nova’s path to seeing the issue clearly.

It has no bearing on the reasons we hold the opinions we hold, because those opinions are rooted in objective reality, not how we feel about something. That, I suspect, is something that Nova and other “all or nothing” trans persons cannot tolerate among their ranks, as the core of their perceived identity hinges on being accepted as an actual member of the gender they identify with.

I have tons of empathy for people who struggle with this, and I accept them for who and what they are. That empathy doesn’t, and shouldn’t, require that I indulge their delusion in order to be considered an ally.

40

Ms. Mrs. Miss.

They are all still women.

If you have a dick and want to be called “Miss, Ms. or Mrs.” that’s fine, too.

But you have a dick so you’re not a chick.

There are no chicks with dicks, only dudes with tits.