After training this winter/spring, this has been my first season of racing triathlon and I’m absolutely hooked. There’s so much to learn your first season, but I feel like I’m starting to get a feel for the sport and the competitive scene.
One thing that has struck me as odd is that based on my power, I expected cycling to be a weak link of mine, but it’s proved to be quite the opposite. Since starting training, I have brought my FTP up from 230 or so to 265ish. At a weight of 160 lbs, that is a respectable amount of power, but certainly nothing too impressive. especially since I see so many posts on reddit/strava from people with a 4+ W/kg FTP at well over 300W.
At my most recent race, I had the fastest bike split of over 300 competitors, averaging 24.3 mph for an Olympic with around 800 feet gain. I did it averaging 240W (about 90% FTP) on a 15 year old bike with a $300 wheelset and an aero position that could certainly use some work.
Looking at bike calculators, my speed seems about correct given a reasonable CdA. And if I plug in the numbers of a slightly strong rider, it looks like pushing 270W (what someone with a 300W FTP might push for an olympic) with a “good” CdA of 0.2 (which again seems reasonable for a good position with disk wheels and all the aero gear), you would go over 27 mph on flat terrain! That type of power seems like it would place you at the top of the age group field in any of the regional IM 70.3s near me.
So my question is… where are all of the people with 300W FTPs on the local triathlon circuit? Is my area just not very competitive? Is a good aero position much rarer than I think? Are many power meters simply miscalibrated? Are people just lying about their FTPs? I’m obviously quite happy with my bike progression, but I guess I still feel a level of insecurity having such “low” power numbers.
You are not distinguishing between local and international.
Let’s take marathoning.
2:01-2:-0x you are in some kind of an international field
2:1x-2:20 you can still run in an olympic field, but you’re not factoring into the competition
2:2x-2:30 you are fast enough in your state, but not in any internationally fast group
2:4x+ you are local hero
All those big FTP and watts per kilo are well past local hero group, but they are not in an international or pro field. Online you see big numbers from people all over the world so it makes locally fast people look slow, which they are relative to nationally or internationally fast. Your local race just did not have much of a field that had a spinkle of state level or national level athletes (forget about international level). Go to Kona or even 70.3 worlds and everyone can ride around 4W per kilo at Olympic tri pace. They won’t at Kona, but most of the athletes can easily average 4W per kilo in an Olympic tri.
There’s some of that for sure but also many of the riders you see/hear about train specifically for a higher FTP. They need to be able to put in short hard efforts to keep up with the group on the night worlds ride. They have not adapted to riding hard for an hour (Oly) or 2+ hours for HIM without sitting in for a recovery, much less being able to run off the bike. Of course, there are absolute beasts out there that can do all of the above. Maybe they just stick to riding because they are good at it.
Dead truth - a lot of people here who claim to have 300 watt FTP probably don’t have it. I’ve seen posters here claim boldly that 300watt FTP is “MOP” in a local race, which is utter nonsense.
What I HAVE seen in real life, are people with miscalibrated or errant powermeters that are clearly reading way higher than reality. They might assume it’s right, but I can assure you that even on a non-aero road bike in a crappy position, you’re not averaging 300w and going <20mph like a MOPer. I’ve got a Strava cycling friend who doesn’t even race, and his Garmin PM says he’s pushing like 275w for hours, yet I’m killing him at 190w on the same ride, hills or no hills, and he’s not even much heavier than me. (I have 3 separate powermeters, so I suspect mine are more accurate as they correlate quite well.)
I looked at the fastest times thrown down on Strava on a route in Santa Cruz that was used in Oly races (before the cliff broke) and almost all of them were set by triathletes in the race. They were 24+mph, and only one person was pushing 300+w for the distance. Everyone else ranged from 242-299, and that was like 9 of them. So I call mega BS on all these not-so-FOP people with 300w FTP or 300w race averages and aren’t contending for the top split on the bike.
For the OP, I will say that 240w and 24.3mph for an Oly will typically get you one of the top splits in a local (non-WTC) race, and sometimes the top split. (I had a top local Oly split with 242w and 24.2mph, so almost the exact same specs as you.)
It’s a lot harder to ‘win the bike’ in WTC races, be it 70.3 and 140.6, as the competition is much deeper and from a larger area.
I recall Magnus being asked what his FTP was and he was like, “it depends. aero position? indoors? uphill?” The point being, someone can have a 300W FTP sitting up on Zwift, or on a steady climb; and not be able to replicate it in aero.
Ex. On that Santa Cruz course, I had a 265W FTP (from Zwifting) and recorded a 218AP/225NP. Why? I was bad a putting out power on the downgrades, I was in aero most of the time, there are 180 turns and some curves you coast through, there are slower riders clogging the road that you have to wait for them to move right, etc. That was good for 3rd in my AG, and IME NorCal fields are a lot deeper than other places I’ve lived.
Also, triathletes tend to continue to race longer than those in some other sports. I’m sure lots of folks on the forum know what it’s like to be above 4W/kg. My FTP was a lot higher 30 years ago.
I recall Magnus being asked what his FTP was and he was like, “it depends. aero position? indoors? uphill?” The point being, someone can have a 300W FTP sitting up on Zwift, or on a steady climb; and not be able to replicate it in aero.
Ex. On that Santa Cruz course, I had a 265W FTP (from Zwifting) and recorded a 218AP/225NP. Why? I was bad a putting out power on the downgrades, I was in aero most of the time, there are 180 turns and some curves you coast through, there are slower riders clogging the road that you have to wait for them to move right, etc. That was good for 3rd in my AG, and IME NorCal fields are a lot deeper than other places I’ve lived.
Also, triathletes tend to continue to race longer than those in some other sports. I’m sure lots of folks on the forum know what it’s like to be above 4W/kg. My FTP was a lot higher 30 years ago.
To the part in bold, my largest gear on my cassette was once 21 with a 42 up front with which I did climbs in the Alps…then it became 23. Then the small ring up front became 39. Then the large gear in the back was 25…then 28. Now 32. It seems FTP has proportionally changed with my gearing since 1990!!!
In any case, there are people with high FTP’s locally at “sub national level” and even higher ones at national level (age group) and then you get into pro triathlete level and then protour level. We just see all the biggest numbers online, but it is rare that the big number people are at our local race.
Think some others have covered the inflated FTPs that get reported by many, but I also want to point out that pretty much zero triathletes have a CdA below .20, especially at an actual race.
So my question is… where are all of the people with 300W FTPs on the local triathlon circuit? Is my area just not very competitive? Is a good aero position much rarer than I think? Are many power meters simply miscalibrated? Are people just lying about their FTPs? I’m obviously quite happy with my bike progression, but I guess I still feel a level of insecurity having such “low” power numbers.
(opening caveat that FTP is weight and aero dependent)
If someone is good enough at cycling to have a 300w+ FTP or 4.5+w/kg there’s a tendency for them to leave triathlon for cycling. Before you shout at me, realize that on a triathlon forum you’re going to have selection bias towards triathlon. Furthermore, power is great but racing (in any form) is about speed. Cornering, power application, and of course aero are all important components.
Cyclists also have a tendency to test their FTP by 20min or ramp test, both of which will usually overestimate due to the surgy, anaerobic nature of bike races. Triathletes may find their FTP actually higher in a 60 min test than a 20*0.95 if they’re trained specifically.
But yeah, as paul said, you’re a big fish in a little pond. Head to even the smallest MDot race for a big step up in competition.
After training this winter/spring, this has been my first season of racing triathlon and I’m absolutely hooked. There’s so much to learn your first season, but I feel like I’m starting to get a feel for the sport and the competitive scene.
One thing that has struck me as odd is that based on my power, I expected cycling to be a weak link of mine, but it’s proved to be quite the opposite. Since starting training, I have brought my FTP up from 230 or so to 265ish. At a weight of 160 lbs, that is a respectable amount of power, but certainly nothing too impressive. especially since I see so many posts on reddit/strava from people with a 4+ W/kg FTP at well over 300W.
At my most recent race, I had the fastest bike split of over 300 competitors, averaging 24.3 mph for an Olympic with around 800 feet gain. I did it averaging 240W (about 90% FTP) on a 15 year old bike with a $300 wheelset and an aero position that could certainly use some work.
Looking at bike calculators, my speed seems about correct given a reasonable CdA. And if I plug in the numbers of a slightly strong rider, it looks like pushing 270W (what someone with a 300W FTP might push for an olympic) with a “good” CdA of 0.2 (which again seems reasonable for a good position with disk wheels and all the aero gear), you would go over 27 mph on flat terrain! That type of power seems like it would place you at the top of the age group field in any of the regional IM 70.3s near me.
So my question is… where are all of the people with 300W FTPs on the local triathlon circuit? Is my area just not very competitive? Is a good aero position much rarer than I think? Are many power meters simply miscalibrated? Are people just lying about their FTPs? I’m obviously quite happy with my bike progression, but I guess I still feel a level of insecurity having such “low” power numbers.
Here are my rough rules of thumb:
-FTP on a road bike, usually obtained on a mountain/hill climb is around 15-20 watts higher than on a TT bike.
-During an Olympic distance triathlon if you are a strong/experienced rider, you will usually ride around 92-95% ftp.
On standard difficulty courses with no drafting for athletes in the 145-175 range, these are the numbers approximately required (Normalized power).
24 mph 3.3-3.4 W//kg
25 mph: 3.6-3.7 W/kg
26 mph: 3.9-4.1 W/kg
27 mph 4.3-4.6 W/kg
So for me, a 76 KG athlete, when I am at my peak performance my FTP on a roadbike/hill climb is around 350 watts, on a TT bike 330 watts, so in an oly triathlon around 300 watts np which will get me a ride average of 26 mph. When I am not in peak performance my FTP on a TT bike is around 315 watts and I ride around 285 watts normalized which gets me an average of 25 mph.
Here are my rough rules of thumb:
-FTP on a road bike, usually obtained on a mountain/hill climb is around 15-20 watts higher than on a TT bike.
-During an Olympic distance triathlon if you are a strong/experienced rider, you will usually ride around 92-95% ftp.
On standard difficulty courses with no drafting for athletes in the 145-175 range, these are the numbers approximately required (Normalized power).
24 mph 3.3-3.4 W//kg
25 mph: 3.6-3.7 W/kg
26 mph: 3.9-4.1 W/kg
27 mph 4.3-4.6 W/kg
So for me, a 76 KG athlete, when I am at my peak performance my FTP on a roadbike/hill climb is around 350 watts, on a TT bike 330 watts, so in an oly triathlon around 300 watts np which will get me a ride average of 26 mph. When I am not in peak performance my FTP on a TT bike is around 315 watts and I ride around 285 watts normalized which gets me an average of 25 mph.
Those numbers mean you need to take a good hard look at your aero setup. The effective Cda is 0.27-0.30. Getting an effective Cda down to 0.25 or actual Cda of 0.22 isn’t terribly difficult with testing, except for the very tallest of athletes. With a bit of money into modern equipment a 0.20 is achievable for almost everyone.
But my money for this case is that the PM is reading high.
Calculating Cda from a triathlon bike split requires making the assumption that you quickly obtain your average power, and then proceed to maintain that power while in the aero position for the duration of the race. Obviously, that is not the case. Triathlons include mounting/dismounting, getting clipped into your pedals, sitting up and slowing down to avoid slower athletes/cars etc, hydrating, navigating turns etc. This results in needing much higher power requirements to achieve the same speed that can be obtained in a time trial which are almost always much “cleaner”. We have a 10 mile out and back time trial in our area that a lot of triathletes do. We usually see around a 3 mph variation between what can be achieved at the TT versus in the local triathlons. Anyone consistently riding 27mph for a triathlon bike split is a beast, but for a TT, that is very middle of the back.
(opening caveat that FTP is weight and aero dependent)
If someone is good enough at cycling to have a 300w+ FTP or 4.5+w/kg there’s a tendency for them to leave triathlon for cycling. Before you shout at me, realize that on a triathlon forum you’re going to have selection bias towards triathlon. Furthermore, power is great but racing (in any form) is about speed. Cornering, power application, and of course aero are all important components.
Cyclists also have a tendency to test their FTP by 20min or ramp test, both of which will usually overestimate due to the surgy, anaerobic nature of bike races. Triathletes may find their FTP actually higher in a 60 min test than a 20*0.95 if they’re trained specifically.
But yeah, as paul said, you’re a big fish in a little pond. Head to even the smallest MDot race for a big step up in competition.
I will second that the good cyclist stay cycling. They tend to be super weak in one of the other legs. Crit racing has prize money for armatures, including prime laps. More reward in cycling.
As for cyclist using short ftp tests, hah, I see more triathletes doing that.
It’s sad you are being told to got to mdot for competition. I’m not sure if that, when you count the many complet-itors.
Calculating Cda from a triathlon bike split requires making the assumption that you quickly obtain your average power, and then proceed to maintain that power while in the aero position for the duration of the race. Obviously, that is not the case. Triathlons include mounting/dismounting, getting clipped into your pedals, sitting up and slowing down to avoid slower athletes/cars etc, hydrating, navigating turns etc. This results in needing much higher power requirements to achieve the same speed that can be obtained in a time trial which are almost always much “cleaner”. We have a 10 mile out and back time trial in our area that a lot of triathletes do. We usually see around a 3 mph variation between what can be achieved at the TT versus in the local triathlons. Anyone consistently riding 27mph for a triathlon bike split is a beast, but for a TT, that is very middle of the back.
Ah yeah that’s fair. I usually just snapshot an “effective Cda” from tri’s to get an idea, but that’s usually starting a few min in and ending a few min from the end to cut out the initial setting up and run prep. It’s usually only ~0.02cda lower than whatever my actual cda measured prior to the race. Might just be more risk-taking and carrying speed differently.
Most triathletes that have strong bike legs don’t do local triathlons, they are at Ironmans. Truth is, local triathlons are also just not super popular, there is a thread going around about that.
For reference, I have a 300w FTP on the road bike (275w on tri bike) and will set the fastest bike split at most local, top 10 at regional, and top 25 at 70.3/Ironman but I also have a fairly solid position. My swim/run are not great but my biking helps me put together semi-decent performances. I also can set pretty much any KOM locally with a dedicated effort and place top 20 in most regional bike rides/races with climbing (I am <70kg). But, I am pack fodder in Cat 2 races and anything beyond regional bike races and I get destroyed. Most large cities will have 100s of guys capable of doing 350w+ for extended durations - some race bikes, some race tris, some just play on group rides. But 300w FTP will at least get you in the ballpark of riding with those guys, especially if you can dial in position or have better tactics.
With that said, coming off Ironman training last year I had some of the best bike fitness I’ve ever had. I capped at about 11 hours of week training and had fitness similar/better than when I was dedicated to bike training with more hours. However, I was missing top end, obviously. Triathlon training in general is incredibly good at boosting your bike performance if you train appropriately. I think most people that do triathlons for fun don’t do bike training well because of the hours involved to become decent at it.
So you are really looking at the top 10% of all triathletes that are dedicated/consistent, can pay for the appropriate gear, and actually show up to race. And then of course, you need genetics to be in the 4.0 w/kg+. I’ve actually found it pretty funny when following friends on how linear the performance across the 3 sports are. If you have for instance a 300w FTP, I bet you’ll be roughly capable of a 19min 5k, and swim decent but not amazing. Of course, if they grew up doing one of the sports over the others, they have a slight edge but if they train consistently the performances are pretty similar across all 3 sports. Swimming obviously is a bit of an outlier sometimes. But if you drop a 15min 5k runner on a bike for 6 months with a coach, I bet he’s got a 5 w/kg+ FTP.
Thanks everyone for the replies! Interesting to hear the various perspectives on this.
I wanted to challenge this post a bit, because I feel like it doesn’t align at all with my real-world observations. The few people who were just behind my on the bike split of my race ran around 6:00 pace for the 10k or slightly slower (and I managed slightly faster :P). But the idea that 300W FTP = 19:00 open 5k was my perception before racing locally. In reality, the local competition is probably around 250-260W FTP, and can run faster than 19:00 5k pace for 10k off the bike! And I definitely don’t think that any random 15:00 5k guy will be 5W/kg in 6 months. One of the local guys here just graduated college as a 14:00 5k runner, has been training for the better part of a year, and is roughly the same cycling ability as me.
Anyways, no real point to my rambling, other than the fact that pushing high power on a bike is way more impressive than I previously thought (and certainly puts those crazy TdF numbers in perspective). Drawing equivalencies between sports is tricky and always becomes sort of a pissing contest, but my perception is it seems like 4 W/kg might be more like a 16:00 5k instead of 19:00 lol.
The biggest difference in cycling between a runner and a cyclist with a XX:XX 5k is going to be technical performance on the bike. The cyclist (likely) is going to be more aero and have a speed advantage straight away. If the cyclist is coming from a racing background they will carry more speed through corners, apply power in smarter places, and scrub less speed in general.
You can imagine a 15:00 5k runner with 6 months on the bike pedaling too far into corners, going the same power uphill/downhill, not accelerating hard enough out of slower corners, and moving around enough that their efficiency degrades measurably.
As an average it’s close enough, but there’s always individual differences. It’s easy to have a 300w FTP if you weigh 200lb, but no way is that guy running a fast 5k. Ditto for a 105lb runner coming over to the bike.
I’ve been riding and running since I was 12, so going on 40 years. As such, I would say I am equally experienced runner and cyclist. That does not mean I am an equally talented runner and cyclist, though…
Despite some recent fueling breakthroughs, in cycling only races, I’m still a few places off the podium. In Much larger 5ks, I just miss winning my age group despite tending to focus more on cycling.
However, in triathlon, I still have fast bike splits because I’m very aero and very experienced. My last flat race I did 20K at 230 watts for a 29:35 at about 69 kilos.
Since I’ve been working my position for 20-odd years, I ride as fast or faster than when I was 30ish despite riding what I can only assume is much less power.
If only I could still run that fast…
(I’m riding a P2C with Flashpoint wheels so all my tech is from around 2007. Except my Di2 rear derailleur. Actually, I have a pretty fast skinsuit, too.)
Most triathletes that have strong bike legs don’t do local triathlons, they are at Ironmans. Truth is, local triathlons are also just not super popular, there is a thread going around about that.
For reference, I have a 300w FTP on the road bike (275w on tri bike) and will set the fastest bike split at most local, top 10 at regional, and top 25 at 70.3/Ironman but I also have a fairly solid position. My swim/run are not great but my biking helps me put together semi-decent performances. I also can set pretty much any KOM locally with a dedicated effort and place top 20 in most regional bike rides/races with climbing (I am <70kg). But, I am pack fodder in Cat 2 races and anything beyond regional bike races and I get destroyed. Most large cities will have 100s of guys capable of doing 350w+ for extended durations - some race bikes, some race tris, some just play on group rides. But 300w FTP will at least get you in the ballpark of riding with those guys, especially if you can dial in position or have better tactics.
With that said, coming off Ironman training last year I had some of the best bike fitness I’ve ever had. I capped at about 11 hours of week training and had fitness similar/better than when I was dedicated to bike training with more hours. However, I was missing top end, obviously. Triathlon training in general is incredibly good at boosting your bike performance if you train appropriately. I think most people that do triathlons for fun don’t do bike training well because of the hours involved to become decent at it.
So you are really looking at the top 10% of all triathletes that are dedicated/consistent, can pay for the appropriate gear, and actually show up to race. And then of course, you need genetics to be in the 4.0 w/kg+. I’ve actually found it pretty funny when following friends on how linear the performance across the 3 sports are. If you have for instance a 300w FTP, I bet you’ll be roughly capable of a 19min 5k, and swim decent but not amazing. Of course, if they grew up doing one of the sports over the others, they have a slight edge but if they train consistently the performances are pretty similar across all 3 sports. Swimming obviously is a bit of an outlier sometimes. But if you drop a 15min 5k runner on a bike for 6 months with a coach, I bet he’s got a 5 w/kg+ FTP.