Anyone using the DECLINE function on their treadmill much?

Triathlon Forum
1

Just curious - Anyone using the DECLINE function on their treadmill much?

My Sole F80 doesn’t do decline, nor am I planning to upgrade it any time soon, but the idea was planted in my head as I’m eyeing a big downhill-the-whole-way marathon later this year (probably as close to legal cheating as you can get in a marathon, to be honest) so I was wondering if anyone was actually using decline treadmills to simulate something like that or other courses to any useful effect.

I personally think the 0% on treadmills is close to a 1-3% road decline equivalent.

2

A 2x4 or two under the rear legs of the treadmill has been done before. This can put added strain on the treadmill as it’s then pulling your body weight up a bit rather than just back.

3

A 2x4 or two under the rear legs of the treadmill has been done before. This can put added strain on the treadmill as it’s then pulling your body weight up a bit rather than just back.

I did this training for Boston and every week I’d run a sub 40 min 10K downhill (like 10 mph zero to minus 4 grade…I’d just vary it…I had plus 4 as level with the back propped up and a zero incline was the equivalent of minus 4). I had the top cap open and a fan blowing on the motor, because the motor has to lift you “uphill” on every stride before you launch yourself down. I only weighed 137 for that Boston race. I felt that once per week speedy session was key to going sub 3). Technically it is slightly different being comfortable running sustained long downhill forever and just letting your body go. I just have nothing locally that is long and gradual forever. Just steep and short (like 2 min downhills)…the longer downhills around here that would take 10 min are covered by ski trails in the winter.

4

Good luck. I have done one marathon with a huge downhill portion (St. George) and I have never been so sore after a race in my life. I also made the mistake of leaving my elastic laces in my shoes. End result, numerous blisters and lost toenails. My feet looked like that runner on the Nike commercial.

5

I’ve never seen a treadmill with a decline function. They always seem to end at 0%

6

Good luck. I have done one marathon with a huge downhill portion (St. George) and I have never been so sore after a race in my life. I also made the mistake of leaving my elastic laces in my shoes. End result, numerous blisters and lost toenails. My feet looked like that runner on the Nike commercial.

Sore is fine if you get a big PR on it. Almost everyone I’ve seen post about ‘my quads got trashed’ beat their flat/rolling PRs by 5+ minutes.

7

I’ve never seen a treadmill with a decline function. They always seem to end at 0%

Precor has several models that decline. I like use the decline function when doing reasonably hard intervals. For example, I’ll go from running 8 mph @ 6% grade, to 8 mph at minus 3%. OK…let me restate that…I “used” to do the above intervals…I have a ways to get back to that, but I’ll prove the doctor wrong who said I’ll be lucky to walk normally again.

8

Just curious - Anyone using the DECLINE function on their treadmill much?

My Sole F80 doesn’t do decline, nor am I planning to upgrade it any time soon, but the idea was planted in my head as I’m eyeing a big downhill-the-whole-way marathon later this year (probably as close to legal cheating as you can get in a marathon, to be honest) so I was wondering if anyone was actually using decline treadmills to simulate something like that or other courses to any useful effect.

I personally think the 0% on treadmills is close to a 1-3% road decline equivalent.

I have neg 6% up to 18mph.

Having said that we never use the decline feature. You would need To be extremely careful with the excess loading both in terms of Rom and higher impact.

Maurice

9

Just curious - Anyone using the DECLINE function on their treadmill much?

My Sole F80 doesn’t do decline, nor am I planning to upgrade it any time soon, but the idea was planted in my head as I’m eyeing a big downhill-the-whole-way marathon later this year (probably as close to legal cheating as you can get in a marathon, to be honest) so I was wondering if anyone was actually using decline treadmills to simulate something like that or other courses to any useful effect.

I personally think the 0% on treadmills is close to a 1-3% road decline equivalent.

I have neg 6% up to 18mph.

Having said that we never use the decline feature. You would need To be extremely careful with the excess loading both in terms of Rom and higher impact.

Maurice

Maurice, how is the range of motion and loading different than running downhill outdoors? Should be largely the same. I try to visualize “working with the belt” catching the belt with my foot and throwing it backwards (to use an upper body analogy, when you catch a ball and cradle it and throw it back in one motion…think basketball player)

10

Just curious - Anyone using the DECLINE function on their treadmill much?

My Sole F80 doesn’t do decline, nor am I planning to upgrade it any time soon, but the idea was planted in my head as I’m eyeing a big downhill-the-whole-way marathon later this year (probably as close to legal cheating as you can get in a marathon, to be honest) so I was wondering if anyone was actually using decline treadmills to simulate something like that or other courses to any useful effect.

I personally think the 0% on treadmills is close to a 1-3% road decline equivalent.

I have neg 6% up to 18mph.

Having said that we never use the decline feature. You would need To be extremely careful with the excess loading both in terms of Rom and higher impact.

Maurice

Maurice, how is the range of motion and loading different than running downhill outdoors? Should be largely the same. I try to visualize “working with the belt” catching the belt with my foot and throwing it backwards (to use an upper body analogy, when you catch a ball and cradle it and throw it back in one motion…think basketball player)

Different only in how you could structure the work out, IE for the wrong personality it offers more room to eff up. In order of importance and or risk reward as to what makes people fast runners (say IM or pure M) I personally would put decline running way down the list.

Maurice

11

I can see for pure IM…but for any other kind of running, running downhill is not really about building aerobic performance, but more about the technical aspect. There is some training of the eccentric chain, lengthening of the muscles in the quads and tibia with higher force too. I do agree that you can screw it up worse than outdoors. When outdoors if you feel something going wrong you can slow down in a stride or two and stop if you have to. Button pressing on a treadmill is not that “quick”. Same reason outdoor speed at a track (at least for me) seems more natural and safe than on a treadmill.

12

Just curious - Anyone using the DECLINE function on their treadmill much?

My Sole F80 doesn’t do decline, nor am I planning to upgrade it any time soon, but the idea was planted in my head as I’m eyeing a big downhill-the-whole-way marathon later this year (probably as close to legal cheating as you can get in a marathon, to be honest) so I was wondering if anyone was actually using decline treadmills to simulate something like that or other courses to any useful effect.

I personally think the 0% on treadmills is close to a 1-3% road decline equivalent.

why are people signing up for these cheater races? you trying to bq or something when you know you cant on a normal course?

13

BTW, your new/used Woodway treadmill should have at least a -3 degree option on it.

14

Sure,

The cake is aerobic performance, (and with running specifically living to fight another day…IE not getting injured) we could debate the value of the icing, sprinkles, cherry on top etc but the cake is the cake.

Just saying, proceed with caution.

Maurice

15

It is supposed to come on Tuesday, but I am certain the Desmo model is 0-15% only.

Maurice, agreed, it is icing. I think its not required for IM, barely required for open marathon or half IM…however, I needed my icing at the Boston where I broke 3 hours…final time was 2:59.52. I pretty well gained all of those 8 seconds coming down from the Newton Hills:-). I think it just depends on how much your are fighting for seconds or units of 30ish seconds.

16

biggest thing with downhill running is the quads are doing a lot of eccentric contractions. This leads to a lot of ripping apart of the actin and myosin filaments and creates a lot of DOMS, which we know peaks about 48h after the event. This can hinder training a day or two or more after doing a downhill run.

If one goes to pubmed they’ll find a fair number of studies on downhill running, what the effects are from 1 bout, repeated bouts etc. Worth reading imo, might lead to some training changes for those of you running downhill often.

It’s also good for increasing stride rate. You’re stride rate will be slightly higher vs flat running and even higher vs uphill running.

If I had to choose between doing a workout of say 5x3min at either a -3 decline or +3 incline, I’d be more inclined to choose the uphill repeats

17

Just curious - Anyone using the DECLINE function on their treadmill much?

My Sole F80 doesn’t do decline, nor am I planning to upgrade it any time soon, but the idea was planted in my head as I’m eyeing a big downhill-the-whole-way marathon later this year (probably as close to legal cheating as you can get in a marathon, to be honest) so I was wondering if anyone was actually using decline treadmills to simulate something like that or other courses to any useful effect.

I personally think the 0% on treadmills is close to a 1-3% road decline equivalent.

why are people signing up for these cheater races? you trying to bq or something when you know you cant on a normal course?

Yup. I’m actually trying to BQ on a fair course that’s almost like CIM for elevation (fast but fair), but if that goes haywire or I miss, it’s going to be one of those megadrop races to get in. I’ve already registered for both, with the fair one as my “A” race, and the downhill one as my backup BQ-effort race around 2 months after if I need it or choose to do it.

I’d be the first to say that squeaking a BQ on such a cheater course SHOULD be totally unfair, but that’s what the rules permit, and like it or not, I’m sure a lot of these BQ -2:00 times needed to actually run the Boston marathon are directly a result of almost all the new marathons being net downhill or net megadownhill.

To my credit though, I’ve ONLY run ‘hard’ marathons. San Francisco, San Diego RnR on a day where the finishing temp was 80F in full sun, and Los Angeles when it was an UPhill net course ending at 82F (as opposed to the current downhill toward the sea.) I’ve got a chip on my shoulder for not BQing by now, so I’m going to fix that, as I’m pretty sure I was in BQ shape on 2 of those marathons, but the course was just too hard. (I would have needed a top <2% in the field to BQ in those races, whereas something flat and fair like CIM is a near 20% BQ rate. That’s wayyy different, even after accounting for the one n doners.)

At least for me though, I would definitely NOT be able to post a time like 2:55 PR run on one of those megadrop marathon courses in my sig line, and not asterisk it. I’m sure a lot of folks disagree with me on this one, but I def would not be able to claim that PR with a straight face on a megadrop course. Heck, in my book, I feel like if you ran a course where over 12% of the field BQ’d, it’s such a fast course (elevation, temp, etc) that it’s not a fair comparison to the true ‘average’ marathon that has nowhere near a 12% average BQ rate.

18

Just curious - Anyone using the DECLINE function on their treadmill much?

My Sole F80 doesn’t do decline, nor am I planning to upgrade it any time soon, but the idea was planted in my head as I’m eyeing a big downhill-the-whole-way marathon later this year (probably as close to legal cheating as you can get in a marathon, to be honest) so I was wondering if anyone was actually using decline treadmills to simulate something like that or other courses to any useful effect.

I personally think the 0% on treadmills is close to a 1-3% road decline equivalent.

why are people signing up for these cheater races? you trying to bq or something when you know you cant on a normal course?

Yup. I’m actually trying to BQ on a fair course that’s almost like CIM for elevation (fast but fair), but if that goes haywire or I miss, it’s going to be one of those megadrop races to get in. I’ve already registered for both, with the fair one as my “A” race, and the downhill one as my backup BQ-effort race around 2 months after if I need it or choose to do it.

I’d be the first to say that squeaking a BQ on such a cheater course SHOULD be totally unfair, but that’s what the rules permit, and like it or not, I’m sure a lot of these BQ -2:00 times needed to actually run the Boston marathon are directly a result of almost all the new marathons being net downhill or net megadownhill.

To my credit though, I’ve ONLY run ‘hard’ marathons. San Francisco, San Diego RnR on a day where the finishing temp was 80F in full sun, and Los Angeles when it was an UPhill net course ending at 82F (as opposed to the current downhill toward the sea.) I’ve got a chip on my shoulder for not BQing by now, so I’m going to fix that, as I’m pretty sure I was in BQ shape on 2 of those marathons, but the course was just too hard. (I would have needed a top <2% in the field to BQ in those races, whereas something flat and fair like CIM is a near 20% BQ rate. That’s wayyy different, even after accounting for the one n doners.)

At least for me though, I would definitely NOT be able to post a time like 2:55 PR run on one of those megadrop marathon courses in my sig line, and not asterisk it. I’m sure a lot of folks disagree with me on this one, but I def would not be able to claim that PR with a straight face on a megadrop course. Heck, in my book, I feel like if you ran a course where over 12% of the field BQ’d, it’s such a fast course (elevation, temp, etc) that it’s not a fair comparison to the true ‘average’ marathon that has nowhere near a 12% average BQ rate.

well you doing this doesnt help the disease. have you honestly put in a focused effort with decent training program to attempt this? most people can get it on a pfitz style 70mpw program. you seem to have the mileage. maybe you are talking about NYCQ and not BQ??? there are plenty of fast flat courses out there, in fact the highest BQ one being flat (and the exact last day to qualify).

19

My woodway has a decline feature, but I have never used it. I wish I would have gotten one without decline, because it makes the treadmill sit so high.

20

Just curious - Anyone using the DECLINE function on their treadmill much?

My Sole F80 doesn’t do decline, nor am I planning to upgrade it any time soon, but the idea was planted in my head as I’m eyeing a big downhill-the-whole-way marathon later this year (probably as close to legal cheating as you can get in a marathon, to be honest) so I was wondering if anyone was actually using decline treadmills to simulate something like that or other courses to any useful effect.

I personally think the 0% on treadmills is close to a 1-3% road decline equivalent.

why are people signing up for these cheater races? you trying to bq or something when you know you cant on a normal course?

Yup. I’m actually trying to BQ on a fair course that’s almost like CIM for elevation (fast but fair), but if that goes haywire or I miss, it’s going to be one of those megadrop races to get in. I’ve already registered for both, with the fair one as my “A” race, and the downhill one as my backup BQ-effort race around 2 months after if I need it or choose to do it.

I’d be the first to say that squeaking a BQ on such a cheater course SHOULD be totally unfair, but that’s what the rules permit, and like it or not, I’m sure a lot of these BQ -2:00 times needed to actually run the Boston marathon are directly a result of almost all the new marathons being net downhill or net megadownhill.

To my credit though, I’ve ONLY run ‘hard’ marathons. San Francisco, San Diego RnR on a day where the finishing temp was 80F in full sun, and Los Angeles when it was an UPhill net course ending at 82F (as opposed to the current downhill toward the sea.) I’ve got a chip on my shoulder for not BQing by now, so I’m going to fix that, as I’m pretty sure I was in BQ shape on 2 of those marathons, but the course was just too hard. (I would have needed a top <2% in the field to BQ in those races, whereas something flat and fair like CIM is a near 20% BQ rate. That’s wayyy different, even after accounting for the one n doners.)

At least for me though, I would definitely NOT be able to post a time like 2:55 PR run on one of those megadrop marathon courses in my sig line, and not asterisk it. I’m sure a lot of folks disagree with me on this one, but I def would not be able to claim that PR with a straight face on a megadrop course. Heck, in my book, I feel like if you ran a course where over 12% of the field BQ’d, it’s such a fast course (elevation, temp, etc) that it’s not a fair comparison to the true ‘average’ marathon that has nowhere near a 12% average BQ rate.

well you doing this doesnt help the disease. have you honestly put in a focused effort with decent training program to attempt this? most people can get it on a pfitz style 70mpw program. you seem to have the mileage. maybe you are talking about NYCQ and not BQ??? there are plenty of fast flat courses out there, in fact the highest BQ one being flat (and the exact last day to qualify).

It’s been awhile since I ran marathons - over 10 years now, but even back then I did Pfitz 18/70 twice, did pretty much 100% of the workouts as written. Got wayyyy faster than I was before, but like I said, I picked some tough marathons and missed by a few minutes on each one. And that’s for a BQ, not a NYCM qual. I think I could actually have a realistic chance on an super-great-ideal day to get an AG-graded NYCM qual on a downhill course, but I def can’t hit that standard on a flat course right now.

And honestly, with my 3 tougher marathon times, I look at those pure-flat marathons in cold temps and see the blazing fast times people throw down on them and think it’s also kind of a joke as well to say that their time on that course is equally comparable to the AVERAGE marathon out there, for which most of them are significantly harder than a cold, dead flat course. Some people on various forums were criticizing my non-BQ time at SF for race underperformance, when in fact, the findmymarathon course equivalency calculator shows that if I had ran that same effort at CIM or Chicago, I would have almost definitely BQ’d with the same equivalent effort.

A lot of those marathoners who PR at the near-ideal CIM or Chicago (in cold) marathons then spend the next 2 years bemoaning how they can’t hit an equivalent 5k, 10k, or HM or even marathon time for the next year or two afterwards, when the reality is just that their PR’s were set on some of the MOST favorable courses you can get. A lot of folks will argue that a cold, dead flat Chicago marathon is actually faster than a megadrop course where you risk overburning your legs and mispacing it.

ANd yeah, I’m again on a structured plan (with modifications to make it somewhat harder) this time Hanson’s plan. But I’ll also be the first to say that I’m not a running natural, and I often have to run 80 mpw to not even get in the same ballpark as some more gifted runners (who aren’t superstars by any stretch) who can outperform me on 25mpw. I ran quite a lot of 21-22 min 5ks for years on serious 30-40mpw training before making the jump into the 70+ zone.