Anyone following what is going on with Polymer 80 and their Build Kits?

[JSA]

Anyone following this? It is interesting.

Background: Polymer 80 is a company that has been selling unfinished “firearms” for a couple years now. They have pistols and rifles. Let’s focus on the pistols. The pistols consist of the plastic “lower” of the handgun. They look similar to Glock lowers, which included the grip and the lower body. They are 80% complete, meaning, there is some work to be done. They come with a plastic jig and a couple drill bits. Using the jig, a drill, and a dremmel, you “finish” the lower. It takes 15-30 minutes to drill a few holes and cut down a couple ridges.

Here:

That plastic “shell” is considered the firearm. Normally, were you to buy a finished lower, it would have to have a serial number and you would have to go through the background check, etc. But, because it isn’t finished, you can order these online without any background check. No serial number, etc. Legally, you can finish it. Then you have a “firearm.” If it you sell it at that point, you have to sell it like a regular firearm.

Now, you can see from the picture above, it is far from a “workable gun.” There are a lot of parts that a still needed. Most important is the upper slide. That contains the barrel, firing pin, etc. Then you need a trigger, magazine, etc. There is a lot more work to do. It isn’t overly difficult, but, you can see you don’t have a full gun.

On Dec 10, Polymer 80’s warehouse was raided by ATF: https://www.wsj.com/articles/ghost-gun-company-raided-by-federal-agents-11607670296

Previously, ATF approved Polymer 80’s product and said it was legal for sale. But, Polymer 80 came out with “Buy Build Shoot” kits. For about $600, you get ALL the stuff you need for a workable firearm. In 30 minutes or so, you have a fully functioning handgun:

As you can see, everything is right there in the package. ATF is saying Polymer 80 never filed for approval of this new package.

I always found the 80% to be an interesting concept. I would even agree with those who say it is a “loophole.” But, there was a lot more to it than just buying the kit. THIS product, however, wow.

Here is are kits: https://www.polymer80.com/pistols/bbskits

Anyone following this?

[BLeP]

Selling people all the parts of a gun but not put together is no different than selling people a gun.

That would be like Ikea trying to claim that they didn’t sell me a table. They only sold me the components of a table.

Utter nonsense.

[Andrewmc]

That is slightly (?) bonkers… Lego fire arms?

[BLeP]

That is slightly (?) bonkers… Lego fire arms?

'Murica.

Why do you hate FREEDOM???

[SDG]

That is slightly (?) bonkers… Lego fire arms?

'Murica.

Why do you hate FREEDOM???

We currently have an exchange student living with us from Asia. When discussing differences between the US and his country his first thought was “Guns”. “We have no guns in our country, even cops don’t have guns”. Here in America everyone loves guns. I said, “yes, that is correct, we haven’t figured that one out yet”

But I guess without guns the good folks in Portland wouldn’t be able to form their new autonomous zone or CHAZ 2 to fend off the police so some people seem to like them.

[JSA]

Selling people all the parts of a gun but not put together is no different than selling people a gun.

That would be like Ikea trying to claim that they didn’t sell me a table. They only sold me the components of a table.

Utter nonsense.

Yep. Kinda hard to argue any other way. I mean, I know the legal arguments. But, sometimes common sense needs to prevail. That said, given how the current law is written, I am interested to see how this plays out.

[WelshinPhilly]

All part of the extreme left’s plan, but I’m surprised she didn’t wait until Jan 21:

.

[Bretom]

All part of the extreme left’s plan, but I’m surprised she didn’t wait until Jan 21:

Fact check: Trump quote on guns misattributed to Kamala Harris
.

[mauricemaher]

Selling people all the parts of a gun but not put together is no different than selling people a gun.

That would be like Ikea trying to claim that they didn’t sell me a table. They only sold me the components of a table.

Utter nonsense.

Lol, this does sound like the IKEA of firearms.

Maurice

[JSA]

All part of the extreme left’s plan, but I’m surprised she didn’t wait until Jan 21:

EXACTLY! The sneakiest part was using Trump’s ATF to do so!

I told you guys Trump was working with Hillary!

[windywave]

Is that a real gun or like the 3D printer ones that are one shot and done
.

[BLeP]

The top part looks like metal. I don’t think that this is a one and done.

[patf]

Isn’t it legal to make your own gun for personal use as long as it contains metal? And of course you are a person legally allowed to own a gun. So couldn’t people 3d print a lower and buy all the other parts legally? If so i wonder what their reasoning is that the kit is illegal?

Also at that price, who would want to build it? you might a well buy a manufactured gun which may be higher quality? For example a Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm.

I doubt criminals are making their own guns.

[JSA]

Is that a real gun or like the 3D printer ones that are one shot and done

In the end, it is very similar to a Glock. Not quite as nice. Not quite as refined. But, similar in most ways. That is very much a “real” gun.

[wimsey]

Isn’t it legal to make your own gun for personal use as long as it contains metal? And of course you are a person legally allowed to own a gun. So couldn’t people 3d print a lower and buy all the other parts legally? If so i wonder what their reasoning is that the kit is illegal?

Also at that price, who would want to build it? you might a well buy a manufactured gun which may be higher quality? For example a Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm.

I doubt criminals are making their own guns.

Trafficking in guns is different than making one yourself - different rules apply.

In terms of who might be in the market for that, I could see folks with a small-government, ‘authorities shouldn’t be tracking my guns’ kind of of outlook being interested because they don’t have serial numbers. Maybe hobbyists as well just because they like the build process.

[Thom]

All part of the extreme left’s plan, but I’m surprised she didn’t wait until Jan 21:

Fact check: Trump quote on guns misattributed to Kamala Harris

Curious to see if he comes back and owns up to spreading incorrect, inflammatory information or if he just moves on to other threads.

[patf]

Isn’t it legal to make your own gun for personal use as long as it contains metal? And of course you are a person legally allowed to own a gun. So couldn’t people 3d print a lower and buy all the other parts legally? If so i wonder what their reasoning is that the kit is illegal?

Also at that price, who would want to build it? you might a well buy a manufactured gun which may be higher quality? For example a Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm.

I doubt criminals are making their own guns.

Trafficking in guns is different than making one yourself - different rules apply.

In terms of who might be in the market for that, I could see folks with a small-government, ‘authorities shouldn’t be tracking my guns’ kind of of outlook being interested because they don’t have serial numbers. Maybe hobbyists as well just because they like the build process.

But since the lower is 80% the idea is that you have to complete the manufacture. And JSA is saying you could buy the 80% lower legally on its own and you can buy all the parts legally on their own. So not sure how selling them together is illegal. What if they just had a parts list and you added each to your cart individually. it would be the same thing and legal?

[wimsey]

Isn’t it legal to make your own gun for personal use as long as it contains metal? And of course you are a person legally allowed to own a gun. So couldn’t people 3d print a lower and buy all the other parts legally? If so i wonder what their reasoning is that the kit is illegal?

Also at that price, who would want to build it? you might a well buy a manufactured gun which may be higher quality? For example a Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm.

I doubt criminals are making their own guns.

Trafficking in guns is different than making one yourself - different rules apply.

In terms of who might be in the market for that, I could see folks with a small-government, ‘authorities shouldn’t be tracking my guns’ kind of of outlook being interested because they don’t have serial numbers. Maybe hobbyists as well just because they like the build process.

But since the lower is 80% the idea is that you have to complete the manufacture. And JSA is saying you could buy the 80% lower legally on its own and you can buy all the parts legally on their own. So not sure how selling them together is illegal. What if they just had a parts list and you added each to your cart individually. it would be the same thing and legal?

See BLeP’s example earlier in the thread about IKEA furniture. The fact that they sell you a table that requires some assembly doesn’t mean they’re not selling you a table.

Selling guns is a heavily regulated activity. Selling a gun as a kit doesn’t get the seller out of complying with those regulations, even if building a gun up from scratch might be legal for the buyer to do as an individual. And as JSA noted above, if that individual who builds one up wants to sell it down the line, he’s going to have to comply with the laws around selling guns too.

And, if you were to buy the lower in fully assembled form (not with the finishing required in the kit at issue), that lower sale is going to be regulated as a firearm sale too.

ETA: <<What if they just had a parts list and you added each to your cart individually. it would be the same thing and legal?>>

Interesting question. To me, no - I think that’s a distinction without a difference. Would it work as an argument in litigation - don’t know. It’s a step away from full-fledged kit. I don’t think it’s a big or meaningful step, but I see the argument.

[kiki]

does the build presume competence and ability to read instructions on the part of the builder?

in other words, if assembly is less than airtight, could it blow apart in the user’s hand, or badly misfire?

who then has liability?

[svennn]

If the lower is 80% then the ATF says it’s not a firearm. Tons of stores sell kits just like that they gather all the component parts needed. Once you mill the final 20% and put it all together you are all set. As long as you are legally able to possess a gun you are good to go.

I do agree that it is a loophole but I’m not sure what it would take to close it.

I’ll be following this story. Maryland has been trying to outlaw these for the last few years. It’ll be interesting to see what happens.