Any 'Muscular' Triathletes out there?

Triathlon Forum
1

Hi Guys,

First post and it’s a burning question for me… …one where I’m hoping for some hope and positive news!

I started ‘toying’ with duathlon a few years ago and now want to invest in taking it more seriously.
I’m naturally endo-mesomorphic, so hold extra body fat but can build muscle reasonably well, and this means that sports I’ve performed better in have rewarded strength and power.

I’m only 5’10" but a reasonable indoor rower with a 1:21 500m + 6:28 2000m and until recently I could hit a peak 1800w on Wattbike, deadlift 220kg and bench 140kg.

I’d like to maintain as much strength as possible so that I can still enjoy my other sports but this is what I know

  1. Size of your heart and cardiac output is normally related to height (I’m 5’10")
  2. Running is about lifting/pushing your body through space and mass matters
  3. Mass distribution is more important than total mass (i.e. heavy legs need to be driven back + forth, whereas a heavy waist line just sits there
  4. Fast twitch fibres are less efficient and tire quicker

So taking these factors into account I know that keeping muscle whilst running fast will be tough- anybody out there with significant muscle doing good things in tri?

If so I’d love to know how you train and what times you’re getting.

Cheers,

Jon

2

I’ll go…

183cm. 79kg when pretty low BF - around 8-10% (acheiveable for 3-4m of race season). No problem putting on muscle and easily put on BF when not very careful with food. Peaking in low 90s kgs before picking up tri 5y ago. Now 38y old.

Background in skill sports (tennis/hockey) - so reasonably fit but endurance never a focus. Had to learn to swim from scratch.

After 2-3 seasons got to decent level - top 10 ETU last year. Consistently top 5 AG at various events.

Took to biking very well and have pushed this hard since no penalty for being heavy. Can usually top 3 bike overall with TT FTP around 330. Join a cycling club - will teach you to ride hard and focus on aero much more than most triathletes. TT on a turbo seems very beneficial to getting correct adaptions - I seem to be one of a few who can actually hold TT position for 1hr blocks. Get a good bike - you’ll be riding faster and so aero matters even more than for most.

I could work harder at swimming since no penalty for size, but it’s not convenient and I don’t love it. Technique trumps power x100 at my level - so get 1:1 lessons if you can afford it. Swimming 2-3x per week seems to keep my upper body muscle intact - which is annoying as I don’t want it.

My running has come on OK. Clear link between lowest weight and best times. Lots of longer threshold running in training to keep lean, and focus on efficient striding. Improved more than I thought I would over time - best 10km in a tri was 38 dead and that was relatively hilly.

I know I have better performances in me, but my relationship with food isn’t great - find it very hard not to fuel up on carbs when I’m fatigued from training, or under high stress at work. Would love some tips here!

Hope that helps.

3

Simski, that is exactly what I’m looking for- thank you.

You’re taller than me, however, and MUCH lighter.
I’m 179cm and usually 90-91kg, although I’m trying to get down to 86-87kg. We are a similar age, though, as I’m 37.

Your cycling output is significantly better than and your run time is exactly where I’d love to be.

So you’re 4cm taller, 7kg lighter than what I’m aiming for a have and have an FTP a good 40w higher.

#goals, eh?!!

Is there anybody more around my build* doing good stuff in endurance sport?
Only person I’ve seen doing well in endurance with a lot of muscle is Ross Edgley but either

a) that guy has incredible genetics, or,
b) he is on more PED than a champion race horse

*Just to be clear, I do not have that level of muscle!

4

Hi Guys,

First post and it’s a burning question for me… …one where I’m hoping for some hope and positive news!

I started ‘toying’ with duathlon a few years ago and now want to invest in taking it more seriously.
I’m naturally endo-mesomorphic, so hold extra body fat but can build muscle reasonably well, and this means that sports I’ve performed better in have rewarded strength and power.

I’m only 5’10" but a reasonable indoor rower with a 1:21 500m + 6:28 2000m and until recently I could hit a peak 1800w on Wattbike, deadlift 220kg and bench 140kg.

I’d like to maintain as much strength as possible so that I can still enjoy my other sports but this is what I know

  1. Size of your heart and cardiac output is normally related to height (I’m 5’10")
  2. Running is about lifting/pushing your body through space and mass matters
  3. Mass distribution is more important than total mass (i.e. heavy legs need to be driven back + forth, whereas a heavy waist line just sits there
  4. Fast twitch fibres are less efficient and tire quicker

So taking these factors into account I know that keeping muscle whilst running fast will be tough- anybody out there with significant muscle doing good things in tri?

If so I’d love to know how you train and what times you’re getting.

Cheers,

Jon

Check out Alex Viada. He’s a JACKED powerlifter and triathlete. Really smart exercise scientist, too, and runs a company called Complete Human Performance. I follow his Instagram.

5

I actually bought Alex’s book ‘Hybrid Athlete’ a few years ago and read it virtual cover to cover.

I lost a little faith, though, as it seems a lot of his numbers are unsubstantiated. There are a few results for is races on the 'net but very hard to find times for anything conventional (a bonafide 5/10/hm/marathon).

The other thing is even if what he says is true, where are all the others replicating his results?

He insists he’s running quick marathons whilst being able to squat 300kg, so surely there should be other people also running quick marathons who squat 275 or 280kg?
His numbers are so outside what anybody else is doing, it would make you think that if he is achieving these numbers its more to do with freakish genetics than training protocol.

I’m looking to find actual, real life people who are clean of PED and managing to combine muscle mass with running performance.

*As a reference, Jason Khlalipa is about my height and a top Crossfitter.
No idea if he’s on drugs but he is a professional athlete with access to the best nutrition out there.
His row times I used as a rough target, even though I knew that to match them at my height/weight would put me in the realms of a pro athlete.

Knowing what is and isn’t possible is really helpful to me when it comes to goal setting.
Aim high but be realistic, hence why I’d love to know if there are Age Groupers out there doing good things.

6

You will be faster in triathlon if you weigh less almost always. There are a few outliers but the heavy people really aren’t heavy.

Mass location doesn’t matter weight is weight. If you weigh 200lbs you’ll be slower. Not that you can’t do tris but it’ll be harder.

Fast twitch muscles mean jack squat for triathlons.

7

Hi Grantbot21, thanks for chipping in- although I do have to disagree with the statement that mass location doesn’t matter.

I assure you it does!

I do running events carrying heavy bags; for anybody outside the UK our elite military are the Special Forces.
SAS/SBS/SRR

Selection includes runs/TABs with a 35lb pack plus rations, so approx 42lbs at race start.

I can comfortably run with 42lbs on my back. If I wore shoes which weighed 21lbs each i wouldn’t get far…
Mass location matters a huge amount.

Mass close to your CofG is easier to control, turn and accelerate. Plus you’re just carrying it like a weight vest.
If you have heavy legs and run at 160spm you have to accelerate your legs and change their angle of velocity after every stride.

Taking it a step further, at elite level running the circumference of the lower leg is actually a better predictor of marathon performance than VO2 max.

8

I think nick bare did a 11 something Ironman and is training to qualify for Boston.

9

I swam in college at about 90kg (6foot 1inch), then after college ran and raced bikes and kept going faster every kg I lost. I got down to about 72kg and ran PRs. When they invented triathlon I went up to 75kg at my fastest weight. My times were like 35min 10k run and always shooting for 2hr in 1.5k, 40k 10k distance races. I rarely hit that number but was usually 1:01 to 1:03 so I was pretty fast but not elite fast.

Then when I backed off 18-20hrs training a week to 10-12 hrs and added gym (weights) back into the program went up to about 85kg in body size. I was still in pretty good shape but not nearly as fast of runner being 15-20kg heavier. My bike time trial liked 85kg but hill climbing sucked. Now I am old and lucky to see 100kg on a good day.

Guess my bottom line though is that even though if you aren’t carrying too much %fat the size is not a helper in running speed at all. I always found my limiter being the off the bike running speed wasn’t there. I realized my limitations in the Desert Princess Series of Duo sport. I could run a 35min opening 10k. (and be 3 or 4 min behind the leaders) ride just as fast as those guys and then die like a dog for a 40 min 10k (if I was lucky) and lose to them by 10 min or more. That is when I realized I would never be an elite.

Good luck and good training.

10

Hi Grantbot21, thanks for chipping in- although I do have to disagree with the statement that mass location doesn’t matter.

I assure you it does!

Taking it a step further, at elite level running the circumference of the lower leg is actually a better predictor of marathon performance than VO2 max.

Do you have evidence on that? I would be interested

11

I actually bought Alex’s book ‘Hybrid Athlete’ a few years ago and read it virtual cover to cover.

I lost a little faith, though, as it seems a lot of his numbers are unsubstantiated. There are a few results for is races on the 'net but very hard to find times for anything conventional (a bonafide 5/10/hm/marathon).

Notorious fraud. Rarely does any official competitions, running or lifting, and blatantly lies about what he has done that has publicly available results. He’s a laughingstock in the running and track worlds.

12

What’s your definition of good things?

I’m 5’11" 190 lbs (86kg). I came from rugby background and college football. I haven’t lifted in a few years since getting into tri. I’m still relatively muscular but I can not tell you what I can bench or squat anymore because I don’t do it. The extent of my strength time is core/body weight exercises. I started triathlon because I had shoulder surgery and got back to swimming for rehab. I’m not sure what your definition of fast is for an age grouper. My Olympic PR is 2:11, I might have been a bit faster at Age Group Nationals this year, but swim was shortened, so can’t count it. Running is still where I struggle. It’s harder for bigger people to run. I can hold my own on the swim and have taken quickly to cycling thanks to #gozwift. FTP is 360 with a 57’ 40k split. 1500m swim ~22’ but running is where I fall off the pace. Half marathon PR=1:37, 5k=19:50ish. I have done a run focused winter though (71 runs in the 100/100 challenge and 449 miles) and have seen a significant gain in my Z1-2 pace but I have not tested any speed yet. If you want to get faster at triathlon you need to train for triathlon. I would not have the energy to power lift, train for triathlon, and function with a job/family.

Oh the other advice I have to be fast is pick a flat course :wink:

13

Hi Guys,

First post and it’s a burning question for me… …one where I’m hoping for some hope and positive news!

I started ‘toying’ with duathlon a few years ago and now want to invest in taking it more seriously.
I’m naturally endo-mesomorphic, so hold extra body fat but can build muscle reasonably well, and this means that sports I’ve performed better in have rewarded strength and power.

I’m only 5’10" but a reasonable indoor rower with a 1:21 500m + 6:28 2000m and until recently I could hit a peak 1800w on Wattbike, deadlift 220kg and bench 140kg.

I’d like to maintain as much strength as possible so that I can still enjoy my other sports but this is what I know

  1. Size of your heart and cardiac output is normally related to height (I’m 5’10")
  2. Running is about lifting/pushing your body through space and mass matters
  3. Mass distribution is more important than total mass (i.e. heavy legs need to be driven back + forth, whereas a heavy waist line just sits there
  4. Fast twitch fibres are less efficient and tire quicker

So taking these factors into account I know that keeping muscle whilst running fast will be tough- anybody out there with significant muscle doing good things in tri?

If so I’d love to know how you train and what times you’re getting.

Cheers,

Jon

I’m 6’2" 195-200lbs, played tennis in college and then got into tris 5 years later. I qualified for Kona last year in M30-34 after a couple roll downs and weighed 200.0 at weigh in a day before IMLP. I have never used professional help but have thought about it to lose a little weight and see why I have so much trouble dropping the last 5-10lbs as I’d ideally I’d be 190. At 200lbs I can go just over 2 hours in an olympic (and hopefully under 2 hours this season) with a run that’s sub 6:00/mile. Hoping to run a 1:21 HM next month at my current weight of 196 or so. I’m certain I’d be faster if i weighed 5-10lbs less. You can see my build in photos from the blog listed below.

14

Thanks guys, good stuff here.

So it’s pretty clear that being lighter helps, with the run being the area which is affected most.
For the posters who have shared your results, you’re all quicker than me so that gives me hope!

I am still heavier/more dense, with a higher BMI, so the uncomfortable truth is probably that unless I’m prepared to sacrifice rowing and crossfit I’ll not be able to perform at a decent club/age group level.

Regarding the lower leg circumference thing, I first read about it in David Epstein’s book ‘Sports Gene’ which explores some of the physical attributes in top level sport.
Some is obvious, like height in basketball, others not so much- like eyesight for baseball.

The Kalenjin tribe punch above their weight in distance running, and the evidence seems to support optimal running economy due to thinner and lighter lower limbs, plus optimal Achilles length (which affects the size and shape of the calf muscle).
He also talks about their long limbs being very good at dissipating heat generated from exertion. A great comparison is Paula Radcliffe who was in form going into the Athens Olympics but didn’t perform to expected levels as she couldn’t cope with the Athens heat.

There are a few studies about morphology around legs, muscle and insertion points etc…

15

Hi Grantbot21, thanks for chipping in- although I do have to disagree with the statement that mass location doesn’t matter.

I assure you it does!

I do running events carrying heavy bags; for anybody outside the UK our elite military are the Special Forces.
SAS/SBS/SRR

Selection includes runs/TABs with a 35lb pack plus rations, so approx 42lbs at race start.

I can comfortably run with 42lbs on my back. If I wore shoes which weighed 21lbs each i wouldn’t get far…
Mass location matters a huge amount.

Mass close to your CofG is easier to control, turn and accelerate. Plus you’re just carrying it like a weight vest.
If you have heavy legs and run at 160spm you have to accelerate your legs and change their angle of velocity after every stride.

Taking it a step further, at elite level running the circumference of the lower leg is actually a better predictor of marathon performance than VO2 max.

If you use ridiculous examples sure it matters. But I don’t think you’re running with 21lb shoes so who cares.

Do you have any data to backup a realistic example of 5 extra lbs per leg of muscle vs 10lbs upper body or Vs 10lbs of fat on your belly, or similar. It’s these situations for a normal runner where I doubt you’ll see much statistical difference.

I understand what you’re saying, but correlation doesn’t equal causation. Most fast long distance runners are going to have smaller legs girth, because that self selects for itself. If you have bigger legs you probably never went into distance because you would have been better at shorter distance.

I’d like to see the journal article on vo2 max vs lower leg circumference. I tried searching but can’t find any article on it. The only thing I saw was something in sports gene book.

16

David Goggins is pretty much how you describe.

17

Running is relentless in punishing excess weight – a rule of thumb is that you’ll run about 2" slower per mile per pound of weight above your optimal running weight (which most of us - including myself at 180cm/73 kg - are). In metric units I guess that’s about 3"/km slower per kg excess mass.

So you’ll have a hard time being the best triathlete you can be if you want to keep enough muscle mass to support heavy lifting and anaerobic biking and rowing. The aerodynamics of v^3 mean that you’re fighting diminishing returns if you want to let cycling strength compensate for running weakness.

But if you start running a lot and like it, you might want to get faster, you might like the way you look and feel with less muscle mass, and you might find you enjoy having more muscle definition even with less muscle mass. So I’d say try running more and see how it goes. You can always stop if you don’t like it, and there are plenty of run-oriented triathletes out there who are not total wimps.

Edit: if you care a lot about indoor rowing specifically, then losing weight will make it easier to row with higher cadences and you might find your 2k time suffers less than you think it will, especially with the aerobic boosts from more cycling and running.

18

Thanks guys, good stuff here.

So it’s pretty clear that being lighter helps, with the run being the area which is affected most.
For the posters who have shared your results, you’re all quicker than me so that gives me hope!

I am still heavier/more dense, with a higher BMI, so the uncomfortable truth is probably that unless I’m prepared to sacrifice rowing and crossfit I’ll not be able to perform at a decent club/age group level.

Regarding the lower leg circumference thing, I first read about it in David Epstein’s book ‘Sports Gene’ which explores some of the physical attributes in top level sport.
Some is obvious, like height in basketball, others not so much- like eyesight for baseball.

The Kalenjin tribe punch above their weight in distance running, and the evidence seems to support optimal running economy due to thinner and lighter lower limbs, plus optimal Achilles length (which affects the size and shape of the calf muscle).
He also talks about their long limbs being very good at dissipating heat generated from exertion. A great comparison is Paula Radcliffe who was in form going into the Athens Olympics but didn’t perform to expected levels as she couldn’t cope with the Athens heat.

There are a few studies about morphology around legs, muscle and insertion points etc…

I may be your closest comparison but you’re still heavier. I was in bodybuilding prior to triathlon and entering the sport I was 84kg at 177cm at 10% bf. For reference at entering the sport I had a 43" chest, 24" thighs and 16.5" arms. I wasn’t that strong with a max bench around 275, squat 315 and deadlift around 365.

Entered triathlon 4 years ago and my cycling was extremely good from the start. My first Ironman bike split was 4:59 at Cda which is a very slow bike course.

Not to go into too much detail but as I got more into triathlon I stopped lifting. I barely went to the gym in 2018 and in 2019 I only went with my gf doing frou frou exercises. Despite this I lost minimal muscle and was 77kg at 8%bf with 42" chest, 15" arms 24" thighs.

Dec 2019 I didn’t to get back into lifting but low reps to try and improve on my cycling again and after 6 weeks I had a 335 deadlift and squatting 275 for reps while I am also doing 17hr/week endurance training so my legs are always fatigued so I could probably jump those up pretty quick with some rest. I am now presently 78kg at that same 8%bf.

For triathlon reference, on tough courses I have done a 9:45 Ironman and 4:29 70.3 and I am much fitter now than then. I have around a 22min 1500m, 17:30 5K, 1:21 half marathon know I’m capable of a sub 3hr marathon.

If you keep your protein high, have a good diet, you can maintain most strength while still making large strides in endurance sports. This year I hope to go sub 9:30 for an IM and 4:20 for a 70.3 while looking jacked and lifting heavy(ish lol)

19

I was in bodybuilding prior to triathlon and entering the sport I was 84kg at 177cm at 10% bf. For reference at entering the sport I had a 43" chest, 24" thighs and 16.5" arms. I wasn’t that strong with a max bench around 275, squat 315 and deadlift around 365.

Not to go into too much detail but as I got more into triathlon I stopped lifting. I barely went to the gym in 2018 and in 2019 I only went with my gf doing frou frou exercises. Despite this I lost minimal muscle and was 77kg at 8%bf with 42" chest, 15" arms 24" thighs.

84kg @10% BF => 75.6kg lean + 8.4kg fat
77kg @ 8% BF => 70.8kg lean + 6.2kg fat

Looks to me like you lost 4.8kg lean (muscle) mass and 2.2kg fat. Is that your definition of “minimal muscle”?

20

Look up Mike Gadzinski (who used to post as Gadzooks here).