How do I increase the rate of turnover? I consider myself a pretty strong swimmer (getting stronger/faster all the time). I took up swimming about 5 years ago, and then got into tris. This year has been the year I’ve seen a lot of improvement (thanks to Masters). I swim a 1:04 2.4 mile pretty consistenly, so I’m very happy with that, but when I look at really good swimmers it looks like their arms are going around about twice as fast as mine.
When I was swimming today, I was trying to get my arm out in front to move at the same time I pulled my other arm out of the water (I was trying to visualize having a long stick where I would hold on to each end, to keep my hands 180 deg apart…something someone told me to try). When I did this, it seemed like I was having a faster turnover, but I don’t know if I was going faster. I have noticed that I almost swim ‘catch up drill’ all the time…meaning my hand is about to enter the water before I start the catch with the other hand…(which is probably because that was the only drill I liked to do for a really long time). My coaches have commented that I have one of the slowest turn overs they’ve seen (certainly the slowest of anyone swimming in my lane at practice), they’ve also commentd that I’m really gentle with putting my hand in the water (another reason they’ve banned me from doing catch up drills).
1:04 isn’t bad at all so I’m not sure why you’d want to increase your turnover rate unless you are sprinting. Usually people are trying to decrease their turnover. How many strokes do take per 25yds now?
I’m a sub 25min HIM swimmer and I take about 11-12 strokes per 25yds. IMO the longer the better. Think about it like this, if you take 12 strokes per 25yds and someone else takes 18, multiply that by the number of laps in 1.2 miles (about 80 or so) and you will have taken nearly 500 less strokes. can’t help but make you fresher for the bike and run.
First, forget about the 180 degrees thing. Ack! Thats baaaad.
Here’s what you need to do. I have the same issue as you and when fit, I can cruse at 10 strokes per length and still be fast enough to make it look good, but I needed to turnover a little faster to get the most out of my stroke and fitness.
Playing catchup is great and keeps you swimming in front but it lets us relax a bit and glide too long. Stroke rate sets is one of the best tools in getting a swimmer to the right rate, but good luck getting a masters program to do it.
So here’s what I did. I fell on this my accident and it was one of the GREATEST things I ever did for my stroke.
Get in a good wormup and hook yourself to the dive block or entry rail. I like the shorter cords becuase you can feel the pull better than on the long ones. Start swimming, make sure you breathe every 3 or 5 strokes. Once you get going and get used to it start speeding up the turnover and feel the pull on your waist. there will be a point where the “bounce” starts to smooth out and you’ll feel constant presure. try and hold that for a few minutes, go a little faster, go a little slower, mess around a bit. What your feeling for is the pull against the cord. get that thing nice and tight, but make sure you can hold that pressure for about 100 strokes. The trick is to find that turnover where you get a reeeel constant pressure and you still feel like yout crusing.
Do a few sets like that. something like 4x 100 strokes w :20 rest.
Relaese the corka nd swim a nice 50-100 at about 1500 race pace. You’ll feel AMAZING because the water will be rushing by you now, but most of all, achieving that turnover will be really easy because of the drills and the new feel you’ll have.
Trust me, its great!
and by the way, if you think I’m nuts, Ive seen the Deboom Bro’s trade off swimming on the leash and swimming length. They’d take a lane and switch off. I assumed it was for open water training for the shoulders but I’ll bet they got more than that out of it!
Slower is not really better. There is such a thing as too slow. You’re waisting time that could be used to go faster.
Dropping water is slower. Slow turnover is great becasue its a great way to focus on a proper pull, but you need speed it up to where you can spin our arms a littel faster and not drop the water.
Being able to do it slow does not mean you can do it fast. The trick is taking that good slow stroke and building a littel strength to it so you can go a little faster. Build each cycle of training so you cna swim at a good clip, turnover faster, keep the HR the same and NOT DROP THE WATER. Got to build up to it though.
25 HIM is great, but I’ll bet that if you just worked of the proper stroke rate you be able to chop a min or two by early season. Thats hard to do though becasue generally you’ll need someone to hold a stroke rate stopwatch for ya. And again, good luck with that! You can buy um and have your friends help you out.
9 if I try. I’ll swim an easy 11-12 right now and I’m Reeeeeeaaaaalallllyyyyyyy out of shape.
EDIT: its a good sign that I have a good stroke, but I know that I need to get a better turnover for racing. I’ve always been good in the pool and been able to really tear off some good times but my open water has always been average. Took a few years to figure out why. Stroke rate. thats it.
EDIT 2: No idea on the lbs rating. Never seen that on the short ones. The long ones are for stronger and weaker swimmers. Probably won’t matter for this application but I’d call the company and ask. Mine is really think and doesn’t stretch much. I also have about 8feet or tow cable tied to it as well. makes it stiff and lets me get out from the wall a bit.
You increase the rate of turnover by moving your arms faster. A “drill” would be to just spin your arms as fast as you can for 25m or so… but it’s not going to do you any good, you’ll be thrashing and not generating much force in your pull.
Find a turnover rate where you can fully catch the water and get the most power out of your strokes. It’s not gentle: it’s aggressive, but it’s not thrashing either.
1:04 isn’t bad at all so I’m not sure why you’d want to increase your turnover rate unless you are sprinting. Usually people are trying to decrease their turnover. How many strokes do take per 25yds now?
I’m a sub 25min HIM swimmer and I take about 11-12 strokes per 25yds. IMO the longer the better. Think about it like this, if you take 12 strokes per 25yds and someone else takes 18, multiply that by the number of laps in 1.2 miles (about 80 or so) and you will have taken nearly 500 less strokes. can’t help but make you fresher for the bike and run.
I guess I’d like to go sub 1:00 in an IM. I started this last season with a goal to go under 1:10 at IMF, and I swam 1:04 (it was actually an easy swim for me, so I might have been able to shave a min or two off of it), but all season I didn’t really work on form that much, I just wanted to get the endurance up and the speed up (intervals), now that I have a good base, I want to work on form this winter.
I’d also avoid the 180 degree image. Kayak-style freestyle like that has a reputation for being rather hard on the shoulders, and you don’t want to end up like Michael Klim.
Also for most people, kayak-style freestyle just isn’t a very effective way of going about it. Of course your recovery arm is going to move faster than your pulling arm. The arm in the air is dealing with probably 1/10th of the resistance the arm in the water is. (or why 90% of swimmers out there have some sort of front quadrant motion in their freestyle to some degree)
First thing I’d try is to consistently think of starting the pull immediately once you’ve got full extension and roll with the entry hand. No gliding allowed! There’s a good Sheila T. article in the ST archives that talks about propulsive freestyle and how extended glidng is evil because it kills your momentum and makes you have to kick more.
As for ideal stroke rate/stroke count, it’s like cycling- some people are spinners and some people are mashers. I’m a spinner in the water- 18 strokes per 25 yards, which gets me FOP out of the water in these parts even though I feel like I’ve got absolute zero swim-specific strength anymore.
My unscientific hunch is that a higher turnover lets you get away with a little less arm strength, and may be one of the reasons why the elite women tend to swim higher stroke rate than the elite men. (the women just aren’t going to be able to develop the same upper body strength as the men are)
i am about a 54 min 2.4 mile swimmer and i only take 14 strokes per 25, if i am swimming steady. In a full sprint i am at 16/18 strokes. (i am a 5’7 female)just remember faster is not always better. the distance per stroke drill will actually help you become more efficient under the water so that you dont have to expend a ton of energy turning your stroke over so fast. you could try doing a set of 25s in a lane with someone of like speed. let them swim steady to about the middle of the pool…at that point you “sprint” to catch them…once you do, slow your stroke down to a long, distance per stroke, but keep your 6 beat kick. eventually you will able to cover more water with less of a turnover and a lower heart rate.
i still have no idea how anyone can cross 25 yards on 11 strokes. admittedly i tend to do very little kicking, but even so, its all i can do to get down to 18. i’m pathetic.
the amount of work it takes to cover a fixed distance is not a linear function of the number of strokes. if there was no friction/water resistance, the work would be identical regardless of how many strokes you take, since Work = Mass * Distance. however, since there is water resistance, its a more complicated relationship - obviously anything that can be done to reduce resistance reduces the work done. given that less strokes probably has that effect, its reasonable to suppose that its a good strategy for saving energy. however…
contrast with cycling, where a lot of people believe that each individual has an optimum cadence, and it isn’t typically beneficial to try to move from one cadence range to another (say, 65-70 to 85-90). if this was true of swimming, it would be interesting … given that you have no gears in the water, it seems less likely.
I have gotten down to 11 strokes for 25 yards, but it was tough to get there. Mostly, I end up doing 13 when I’m concentrating, and 15-17 when I’m just swimming. Lately, I’m giving a lot less credence to the total immersion theory that fewer strokes is better. Yes, this is a good concept to develop efficiency and a clean stroke, but it’s not a philosophy that you want to carry over to racing. I use the low-stroke stuff as an occasional drill, not as a swimming style.
1:04 isn’t bad at all so I’m not sure why you’d want to increase your turnover rate unless you are sprinting. Usually people are trying to decrease their turnover. How many strokes do take per 25yds now?
I’m a sub 25min HIM swimmer and I take about 11-12 strokes per 25yds. IMO the longer the better. Think about it like this, if you take 12 strokes per 25yds and someone else takes 18, multiply that by the number of laps in 1.2 miles (about 80 or so) and you will have taken nearly 500 less strokes. can’t help but make you fresher for the bike and run.
tomorrow I’ll count my strokes…but it will be for 50 M.
