Pretty much sums up what I believe the Republican Party has turned into these days:
For me, this is an epiphany of sorts. Not that I have changed my mind about the things I wrote in “The Conservative Soul.” Not that I have stopped believing in limited government, individual freedom, personal responsibility, pragmatic change. But I have come to believe that large swathes of today’s conservative movement truly are hateful. A reader writes: I’ll state right away that I am a McCain supporter. Still, I am very much drawn to Obama. It’s not a silly, unthinking attraction. It has nothing to do with his race, and I have very little love for the Democratic party. I am also aware that he, in many ways, is just another politician. In other ways, he is anything but another politician.
Unfortunately (or fortunately), I was at my bank when Obama began his speech. I sat down with a group of people (all white, male and female) and watched. The collective groans coming from the group surprised me. Even when Obama was reaching out, saying things I felt were absolutely true, sincere and conciliatory, he was met with derision. A couple people felt the need to talk back to the television as if Obama could hear them (as if their opinions were appropriate at that moment). This was done in public, in the midwest. A fairly moderate town overall. Maybe I’m out of touch, but what has happened over the past 16 years to my country?
Then I left, got in my car, turned on the radio and already Laura Ingram was taking soundbites of Obama’s speech and mocking them, dismissing them out of hand while her listeners chimed in, supporting their queen of talk. I hate this all so much. But then I remembered that Obama will still probably get the nomination and face McCain. One is already great man, the other, Obama, may have taken his first step on his way to greatness. I hope America was listening.
I am immensely grateful that McCain is the nominee, because he is a far bigger man than many in the “conservative” movement today. To read the Corner today was to be reminded that some are immune to the grace and hope and civility that Reagan summoned at his best; the anger and bitterness is so palpably fueled by fear and racism it really does mark a moment of revelation to me.
Let me get this straight: Obama spends his adult life as a member of a racist pastor’s church, gets caught, gives a speech as a result, and it’s out of bounds to disagree with any part of it? Why, some people had the nerve to talk back to his image on the TV?! And *in public?! *My God, what hateful racists they must be. Everyone knows you can’t criticize Obama.
Are you deliberately missing the point? It’s not the fact that folks are critical – you may agree or disagree with Obama’s choice to remain loyal to his pastor – it’s the fact that the tone of the debate is one of derision without articulation on any intelligent level as to why Obama has made the wrong ethical choice. You cannot tell me that you live in Idaho, free from racists – your relatives, your co-workers, people at your church? Are you and your family an island? Have you never been faced with a good person who has descipicable ideals? Is this an oxymoron or is this the human condition? Do we step away from these people without trying to change their mind or try to show them why our world should be otherwise? Does context matter? These are the questions and if you read Obama’s speech, you’ll see him addressing many of them (perhaps not in a way you would agree with, but in an intelligent and rational manner). Do not try to tell me that the conservative hate-speech talking heads (Rush, etc.) are elevating the debate to this level. It’s easy just to hate the man because he’s friends with someone who hates us. It’s also hypocritical.
Are you deliberately missing the point? It’s not the fact that folks are critical – you may agree or disagree with Obama’s choice to remain loyal to his pastor – it’s the fact that the tone of the debate is one of derision without articulation on any intelligent level as to why Obama has made the wrong ethical choice.
Meh, maybe these people all had their minds made up about the pastor being despicable, and anything from Obama, short of complete repudiation of THE PASTOR, not just his ideas, was unacceptable. As to the OP, it strikes me as lazy of Sullivan to post a reader’s input and then just admit to being an adherent of the sentiment. I could provide plenty of examples of liberal narrow mindedness and racism, but I won’t paint “large swaths” of that group with the brush. Maybe that’s Sullivan’s error, falling into the trap of group-think.
Have you never been faced with a good person who has descipicable ideals? Is this an oxymoron or is this the human condition? Do we step away from these people without trying to change their mind or try to show them why our world should be otherwise?
You make a few good points, but after hearing his incredible speech last night, I was left asking that very question: did he actually attempt to change the reverend’s mind, or show him the error of his ways? He admitted to hearing “controversial” remarks made, but what did he do about it, besides tolerate them? Understanding their origin is vastly different than taking action, which he clearly did not. If he understands the power and influence of the church and the words of its leaders, and so strongly disagreed with some of his positions, why not intervene for the sake of his community and help steer the course of the message from hate to hope, as he claims to be able to do as president?
I’m glad he was pressed to confront this issue, and I think he did a masterful job of distilling the politics of race and the importance of transcending racial division, but the discrepancy between his words and his actions is no less problematic in the wake of yesterday’s speech.
****If he understands the power and influence of the church and the words of its leaders, and so strongly disagreed with some of his positions, why not intervene for the sake of his community and help steer the course of the message from hate to hope, as he claims to be able to do as president?
Even more-so, how about for the sake of his daughters who, ostensibly, are there week after week being fed these messages?
I agree. The speech was bold because it opened up topics that people are usually afraid to talk about. I do think Obama went further than he needed to yesterday, but now that he’s gone that far, what does he suggest we do when faced with things like this? Now that he’s going to stick by him, has he spoken to the pastor about these issues? Has he tried to change his mind? Has he tried to explain how rhetoric like this does more harm than good? I’d be curious to know. Pretty words are great – and certainly something that’s been missing in politics for a long time – but leading by example is where the real money is.
Deriding the speech seems like the thinking thing to do, if not the feeling thing to do.
To dignify the pastor’s words as even worthy of discussion is disgusting. They and he do not represent a legitimate point of view. Spinning the pastor’s words as “fierce criticism of America’s foreign and domestic policies” is just a lie. They were not fierce criticisms, or even criticisms at all. They are just hate speech. Were I in the audience at such a speech I would walk out, not hang out for 20 years.
I don’t see how one can present one’s self as a uniter or a candidate of healing and still make room in the tent for such people. I won’t be in that tent.
Comparing the pastor to his grandmother was particularly despicable. I wonder what she thinks about the speech.
I guess the advantage of reading the speech rather than seeing it is that one doesn’t get swept up in all the emotion and oratory. You just look at what he said, and it is pretty frightening.
Obama deserves points for loyalty for his accept me, accept my pastor approach. I will pass on both, thank you. I would prefer Hillary any day.
That’s not a conclusion I’m willing to draw quite yet. I don’t have any reason to believe that his message was focused on the evils of Whitey or the government so much as it was on the broader themes of Christianity and empowerment. I have no doubt that he slipped into this misguided rhetoric far too often, and that the congregation wasn’t all that upset by it - including the Obamas - but I doubt it they were central themes in his message.
Given that there are roughly half a dozen clips floating around demonstrating his outrageous behavior, taken from his 20+ years of leadership in the church, I’m willing to believe that while his message was tailored to the black community (in ways that would make most whites uncomfortable) and bombastic at times, that the larger body of his work was beneficial to the community, including Barack and Michelle’s daughters.
I’ve got a link I’m going to send you via PM. It’ll provide a little better background. Here are somethings to consider:
What was 95% of that church about?
Why would Obama have joined it when he was 27 in 1988?
Why would he have put up with the 5% when he was 27?
Did he agree with the 5% when he was 27?
Does he agree with the 5% at 47?
How valuable has that community become to him in those 20 years?
Under what grounds should one simply abandon their community, especially when it is one with whom he has spent decades helping and supporting and are arguably in need of that help and support.?
There are a lot of factors involved that a lot of people just plain don’t understand and, as far as I can tell, don’t want to understand. That’s one of the problems you run into being black in America, and Obama is being placed in a catch 22. Last Tri in 83 a few threads back had criticized Obama for disowning someone who was an uncle to him (before he actually did…honest mistake on his part) because of the political implications. The man can’t win in this situation. He’s either agreeing with the exact comments shown in the video, or he’s abandoning his friends and community because he disagrees with (or doesn’t want to be seen with) a man who is still bitter about the racism he has endured in his lifetime.
The other irony is, and I’ve heard this a couple of places, that some of the very same people who claim that a black man doing something to a black man isn’t racism, yet somehow Obama, who is half white, supports racism against white people.
Anyway…I’m ranting now. I even had to delete the part where I called Vitus a Nazi. Check your inbox.
Comparing the pastor to his grandmother was particularly despicable. I wonder what she thinks about the speech.
I heard several conservative talking heads make this false observation as well. He did not compare the two, nor did he reject his grandmother while embracing his pastor, as Mark Levin claimed yesterday; he said he wouldn’t disown either because of misguided opinions or statements, because he understood the source of their anger and fear, and loved them both because they were part of who he is.
You may not care for his injection of personal details about his family members who can’t speak for themselves, but it was a salient point and germane to his explanation for their ongoing relationship.
“The man can’t win in this situation. He’s either agreeing with the exact comments shown in the video, or he’s abandoning his friends and community because he disagrees with (or doesn’t want to be seen with) a man who is still bitter about the racism he has endured in his lifetime.”
I agree with you he cant win, but he put himself in that position, why cant he just say that, instead of saying “i did not hear any of them” to " I heard them and I dont agree with them".
I like the guy, I want him to get the Dem. nomination, but damn I dont know which Obama to believe now.
Did he not hear some of these comments and is shocked, or has he heard some of them and accepts them as one off’s. He has said both, which one does he mean today. The story changing is my hang up.
Why dont reporters ask simple questions to him like that?
I only read the speech; I didn’t see it. Racism in whatever form cannot be ignored. And certainly not by a presidential candidate. The easy thing for him to have done would have been to disavow any connection with the pastor and change the subject. Hillary’s probably secretly rejoicing in the fact that he deliberately stepped in the muck here. He remained loyal (again, maybe the wrong choice) and took the opportunity to raise the fact that we still have a race problem in this country.
I fail to see how him comparing his racist grandmother to his racist pastor is despicable. By the way, you live in America. Folks like this are in your tent whether you like it or not. So what are you going to do about it?
His grandmother is still alive and may well be able to speak for herself. Obama compared the two, saying he couldn’t reject her for her failings as he can’t reject his minister.
He didn’t choose his grandmother. He did choose his minister. You can try to argue that it was a non comparison comparison, but that nonsense doesn’t work with me. That would be like my saying he spoke clearly, emotionally and movingly, just like Hitler used to do, and denying I was comparing him to Hitler.
My mother is still around, though my father is not. It would never occur to me to compare either to scum like the minister. I take Obama at his word that he thinks of the two similarly. I don’t want someone who thinks that way anywhere near the Oval Office.
Damn. Looks like Obama lost another vote. You know Art, if you pull the lever really hard, shake your fist, and whack a homeless man with your cane on the way out, it still only counts one. Wait…what district are you in again?
BTW, Art, you should be commended. There aren’t many 60 year old white staunch conservatives around who would have walked out of the room anytime they heard hate speech in their lives. I know I’ve certainly kept my mouth shut out of politeness. You must have been a handful around your elders back in the 60s when it was a little more common to deride the black people in the neighborhood. In fact, you probably got some good exercise with all that walking out you did. Seriously, I am seeing you in a whole new light. I’m proud of you and pround to know you.
I don’t believe he described in that speech or elsewhere his grandmother being a racist. He said she had said insensitive remarks on occasion. I think one comment was being afraid of black males on the street. That is a rational fear in the right situation, one which Jesse Jackson acknowledged about 15 years ago as well. If he has characterized his grandmother as a racist, please give me the quotes or withdraw the statement.
It would be impossible to disavow any connection. He has been a part of his family’s life for 20 years by choice. He has written about the guy in his books.
“By the way, you live in America. Folks like this are in your tent whether you like it or not. So what are you going to do about it?”
I am going to reject such thought processes every time I see them, completely, publicly and passionately. Ask Dan about my reaction to his various Nazi characterizations of people with whom he disagrees. Such people and thoughts need to be defeated in the arena of ideas, 100 times out of 100, not legitimized in any form in responsible discussion or governance.
“You must have been a handful around your elders back in the 60s when it was a little more common to deride the black people in the neighborhood. In fact, you probably got some good exercise with all that walking out you did.”
It is pretty clear you weren’t around in the 60’s, since you have no idea what you are talking about. I never encountered such a situation even one time. That is not to say it didn’t happen, it certainly did and does. When people start to articulate garbage, the responsible choice is to associate only with those that don’t, not hang around for 20 years to understand them better. People that think that way in one area usually have nothing whatever to offer in other areas as well, so no loss.
I don’t know if Obama shares the pastor’s views or not. I take him at his word that he does not. I do know his wife does, and I do know that he raised his family in that environment by choice.
This is a situation ripe for seeing only the side you want to see, and I didn’t expect you to see it any other way. I understand your point, and it’s clearly not an invalid concern, but I fear you are incapable of seeing the other side of the issue and the truth that lies therein. It may not outweigh the concerns you and others - myself included - have about the relationship or the explanation, but it’s worth taking the time to understand what’s actually being communicated and not just what’s being said.****
“Ask Dan about my reaction to his various Nazi characterizations of people with whom he disagrees.”
I just can’t resist asking if you have done such a rejection of Rush Limbaugh over the last 20 years as he compares large segments of our country to Nazis. Oddly enough, even in the last week or so you have lovingly forwarded Rush’s opinion to the board. Have you gone out of your way to defeat Rush’s statements 100 times out of 100?
Barry, I think I would have a lot more respect for Obama if he simply said, for better or worse, I support my pastor/mentor, then take the heat. The tightrope walking-tap dancing-have it both ways comments and speeches just further support my feeling that the guy is an empty suit.