...And what about the safety/wisdom of hosting 2-3 different distances on the same course?

Triathlon Forum
1

Producing an event is a big job. The logistical challenges sprawl across miles and can be complex and difficult to monitor.

I notice a significant increase in athletes going off course, going the wrong distance, not understanding the course, colliding with other athletes, etc. when a race runs a sprint distance, Olympic distance and even 1/2 Ironman on the same course at the same time.

Having one race come off correctly and safely at one distance on one course is enough of a challenge considering the work necessary to adequately stock aid stations and correctly route traffic through each turn and in and out of transtitions.

Each additional distance added to a race within a race adds a layer of complexity and the attendant opportunity for a problem.

Related to the “Safety of two or three loop courses” thread, I think a 2-3 loop course can be well administered, but a 2-3 loop course with 2 or more seperate event distances? That is too much in my opinion.

Bash away…

2

Yikes, that is asking for trouble in many cases but I think we’ve all been involved in races where there were at least 2 distances running concurrently. But it does seem that one of the distances is much less attended than the other which seems to minimize many issues. I can think of two off the top of my head I participated in last year—one sprint/OD (TriOne in Alameda) and a HIM/IM (CaliMan).

In the former, the entire field was not that large and because the swim was especially tough that day, things spread out fairly quickly so the only issue became counting the right number of laps on the multi-loop bike course (8 miles each loop, with one for the sprint and 3 for the OD)…since I double-flatted midway through loop two, I can’t comment on the whole thing but while I was in there it seemed very safe.

CaliMan was a race with a 2:1 ratio of HIM versus IM, again with a not incredibly large field (438 total finishers between both races). Since the bike course did not really double back on itself except in a few spots, there seemed to be zero issues with safety/confusion/etc. Well run overall.

So…it boils down to who is putting the race on, how large is the field, what kind of course will the race be on and I’m sure a bit of luck thrown in there as to the skill level of those participating. I couldn’t imagine, however, a 1500 competitor field on a multi-loop course doing concurrent events…that would be a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

Economics dictates the multi-race format in a single day on the same course—don’t think that will go away unless we really want to start complaining about race fees. It’s up to all of us to clue the others in to events where past races have led to questionable safety…

3

A very good point–while I understand that having the infrastructure for a race day in place is difficult to do once, trying to have it for 2 other days to provide a venue for other distances is tough. So we wind up having mulitple events on the same course. “don’t have to pay the cops three times” so to speak.

A very important point you make. Perhaps this is indicative of a trend where in the past venues were choosen that would fit a triathlon’s requirements. Now it appears that a triathlon is squeezed into a venues requirements or boudnries???

4

Since I just replied to the other thread here goes…If the race lengths are a direct multiple (2) and the racecourse is a direct multiple (2) then there’s no issue. I.e. HIM and IM on the same day on a 2 loop course. The GFT and 1/2GFT (now Florida Challenge Tri) have done this the last 3 years with no major hiccups. The halfers start the swim well after the second lap starts on the full, so there is little fighting for transition spots, and little passing in the water. There’s lots of passing on the bike except for the faster full bikers (I had 4 or 5 of the eventual winner’s group come past at mile ~50 on the bike) and as long as the entrance to T2 is set up right it’s easy to navigate. The same goes with the run, 95% of the HIM runners will be almost finished by the time the first IM runner leaves T2. No problem. Now running Olympic and HIM or IM and Olympic or Olympic/Sprint could turn into a disaster since there is likely only one T1/T2 and multiple course layouts.

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I’ve seen it done… and done well… but it’s highly course-dependent… i.e. what the roads and layout are like…

6

The Great Floridian has a half and a full iron distance race on the same course and it works great. This year they did a sprint race at the same time too. I didn’t observe much of that part, but I think it went off fine.

It would depend a lot on the layout of the course.

7

I agree. If the long course is two laps of the short, there is a lot less chance for confusion. I done a few that were this way and they have worked great. I have also done quite a few where the courses diverge and then reconverge. Most of the issues occur at the divergence point (although reconverging with short course swimmers is not too pleasant). I’ve never had any problems myself, but then I always do my homework. I think there are a fair number of people who don’t even look at the course maps and count on the volunteers to tell them when to turn. At one sprint/Oly combo last year, roughly 5% of the oly athletes rode the short course and one oly athlete even turned around at the 5K turn-around point for the out-and-back run.

8

I did an Oly this summer that was 5 laps. There was also a sprint going on, 3 laps. Just prior there was a U-23 draft legal race 2 lap (I think they had almost cleared the course before the sprint hit). I didn’t have too much trouble with bike traffic but some did.

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i raced the Deer Creek Pineman put on by HFP this summer in Ohio. It was a half ironman distance race and there was an option for a quarter distance. It seemed to go off great. I think it would have been harder if they tried to somehow change the distances to incorporate a true olympic distance race.

Dan
www.aiatriathlon.com

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I think that this raises a very valid point, but I hope that you are wrong. I will be racing in the Grand Haven Festival of Races in July which has at least a Sprint, Oly and a Half (I don’t know if there is also a Du or two). I’m hoping that since this is an established event with just the addition of the half it will be well organized. I have raced in other Multi distance races in the past put on by this sponser and think that they do a pretty good job.

I think that it si possible to run races this way, it just takes a company with the right amount of experience and organization.

I will let you know in July.

11

Totally concur.

Here in Auckland we have a series of tris that incorporate about six distances on multi lap courses. On one of those courses in particular you have got people doing their first tri/du mixing in with Olympic level racers and Sunday morning traffic.

It is a zoo and one day someone is going to get killed or seriously injured at one of these events here. I understand the need to turn a buck, and open the sport out to people etc, but safety sometimes takes a back seat, IMO.

12

indeed it is a big job. i haven’t raced as many events as you but at 160+ i’m not far behind. i’ve seen lots of multiple course events that came through like a dream. that includes tri/du combos as well as tri/tri/du events. there are many where that long/short tri combo has been a fixture from day one without issue.

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I agree with Tom - I have never been a big fan of multiple races at the same time for these reasons -

#1 - It cheapens the main event - If you want a big event, put the time, money and sweat into a good event. Athletes will attend a good event that offers a safe, secure course. Look at the major marathons - does Boston have a 1/2 marathon? New York? Chicago? No only the smaller marathon offer 1/2’s.

#2 - Volunteers - They are the lifeblood of the sport and it is hard enough for them to know one job. Give them one thing to do on race race and do not have them trying to determine which way the athlete should go on the course based on what race they are doing.

#3 - Race costs - I really beleive that if you look at the long term - one race that grows each year will turn a profit and become a great event - having 3-4 races might make money one year, but will the event grow?

#4 - Instead of different races, add divisions to attract athletes - a good example is the AquaBike Division and the Cylesdale divisions at most races. Same race, same course, more people.

#5 - Marketing - What do athletes think of when they do your race? Is it the location that draws them to the event? The distance? If you have lots of different messages in your marketing your event gets lost. (Is it a sprint triathlon, a duathlon, an olympic distance race?)

#6 - Logistics - The more courses and distances that you have to worry about, the more chance of mistakes. Make the course simple, one distance for everyone and your logistics concerns will be minimal.

After the first year of Steelhead, we thought about adding a sprint distance or Oly distance to the event. We talked about it and decided that we would stick with one distance and improve the race and hope more people would attend.

After last years event, we decided to take out the Kids event after the Steelhead because of the stress it placed on our staff and volunteers. After working 8 hours at Steelhead, we did not feel that the staff and volunteers should have to put on another event.

Z

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respectfully disagree about “cheapens” and a few other items.

we drew about 300 to the 2005 Shermanator. ahem…the same weekend you moved the Steelhead to. 60 miles away.

part of the reason for the increase was adding a sprint distance along with 2005 as our third year. we’re capping at 450 and just might hit that figure this year.

plenty of athletes looking for good events of any distance.

15

Depends upon the distances involved, the size of the course, and the number of participants. I have done at least 60 loop course in my racing career. Lately they seem to be less (and less) well done and less safe as more races are added, more participants are on the course and the size of courses seem to shrink. In the past it might be one lane with the cones on the outside of the lane divider, lately the cones seem to be on the inside of the lane divider (presenting another hazard as well).

As it becomes more costly to put on races, I believe this is what the future holds. Is it good? Yes and no. Races such as the HIM and Im distance are daunting to many people but sprints are achieveable by almost anyone. More people exposed to the sport should increase you bottom line, drive innovation and increase the ability to hold races in urban areas by bringing in tourist dollars. Bad in the resepct that more people eventually equals less safety, more crowded transitions (at Ralphs last year people at the end of my rack had to wait for who ever was down there to finish before they could get their bike. Back wheels overlapped and you had to run a Z pattern through back wheels to get to your bike), and more congested bike courses. Soma was quite congested, and IMO very not safe in areas, this year with the half and quater distance races run over the same course.

Good? Bad? or the future?

16

I did Granite Ledges the first year when they had both a sprint and an Olympic on the same day. I can’t remember whether the Olympic or sprint waves went off first. The bike courses started the same way, but it was very clear where the Olympic went straight and the sprint turned right. The run course was an out and back for both races, but again it was very clear where the sprint turn around was. I was doing the sprint, but I didn’t feel like having the two races at once was confusing. Keith Jordan only had the sprint once. I loved that sprint, it played to my strength on the bike. I can’t recall the exact reason that he did not run the sprint in follwing years, but I vaguely recall there issues with the local authorities about two races at one time.

The other race was another Keith Jordan race. Timberman, before he turned it into a weekend triathlon festival. The sprint and HIM went at the same time. Even though the sprint waves started after the 1/2 waves we were on the bike course at the same time. I can recall as several of us in the sprint were hammering up a hill early in the race, several 1/2’ers looking at us, and saying, “Oh they’re doing the sprint.” It was quite apparent we were not pacing ourselves for distance.

Neither of these races had multiple loop formats where it could be easy for someone to do too few loops, but I think when the courses go off in different directions in places that can cause other problems, and necessitate having more volunteers to cover larger areas.

I think it was wise for the races to be put on seperate days. That way the staff, volunteers, officials, etc. can focus completely on one group of competitors. Also I feel the longer event whether it’s HIM vs sprint/Olympic or Olympic vs Sprint always seems to overshadow the shorter event. I’ve often have felt like the sprint race was the poor step child of the HIM. I hope all the hoopla of Timberman being part of the 70.3 series won’t totally eclipse the sprint to an after thought. It should be interesting for anyone who does a double, and has USAT officiating on one day, and GTG officaiting the next day.

17

Having been a race director where we had different start times and different distances on the same course, running concurrent events is maybe the only way to maximize your exposure to the athletes. If you’ve got a seasoned distance guy and a new woman trying her first sprint race, you can get them both in one event. It may not be the best choice for them, but at that point it is the choice of the consumer.

RD offer these options for the same reason you sell KHS comfort bikes.

-SD

18

They had a couple of different races at powerman venray this year. They had different age groups (youth/ short distance age20+) starts with a couple of minutes between them. The 2 volunteers who were standing at the “transition zone go left, for your second round go right” point weren’t informed very well (or they didn’t listen) and they made a mess of it. sending a lot of people the wrong way(they could have avoided it if they knew that every age group had a different number on them).

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From all you race directors, what is the cost to close down roads, put events on?? I think their is a lot of mis-information about how much a race might need to bring in to be profitable?

20

Every year in March UBC (University of British Columbia) rec puts on a huge tri. Well over 2500 people. 4 course lengths, all on the same course (i.e.: super sprint 1 bike loop, sprint 2 loops, oly 4 loops, half IM 9 loops - although they only did the 1/2IM last year and it wasn’t officially part of the race - but I could see them adding it in future years). All swimming in a 50m indoor pool. They pull it off every year, even with crazy weather some years. It is one of the best run tris around, and it allows even total newbies a really safe and controlled environment to try the sport out.

I personally prefer how Black Diamond did it, where the half was on Sat and the OLY and Sprint were on Sunday. But UBC says to me that it can be done, and quite successfully, with a lot of planning and experience (they’ve been doing this tri for eons). The course is DEAD simple, they have a gazillion volunteers, great aid. It’s is a great race.

AP