Aluminum vs. Carbon bicycle frames...my experience and non-scientific observations

So a few months ago I decided to jump on the carbon-frame bandwagon and I bought a Look KG386 frame. It’s the 486’s younger brother, touted as being a bit less stiff and generally more comfortable than the 486, which is a full-bore, drop-the-clutch race machine.

I’ve been spending a fair amount of time (250-350 miles per week on average) on this and my other bike, a 2003 Specialized S-Works. The two bikes are configured very similarly, but not precisely the same. Both have carbon seat posts, with the one on the Look being higher quality. Both have full carbon forks, again the Look’s is of higher quality. Same component setup and I routinely interchange wheels between the two bikes. I’ve done > 10 road races so far this year using the two bikes in about even distribution.

Here’s my completely non-scientific, biased, non-controlled study, anecdotal opinion of carbon vs. aluminum:

I’ve always believed the S-Works frame to be fairly stiff. It’s a compact frame with semi-oversized aluminum tubing. It feels great climbing and in crits, where stiffness is a good thing. I’ve also read that these properties (aluminum, oversized tubing, and compact frames) make for a harsh ride, but having limited simultaneous comparison to other bikes makes it hard to quantify precisely what harsh means.

The Look is a traditional frame (not compact) with some similar qualities to the S-Works - namely a semi-aero shaped seat tube and oversized down tube. Granted, the only scientific similarity is in appearance, but it’s worth noting as I’m sure it affects ride quality in both bikes.

To my surprise, the ride of the Look frame feels virtually identical to the S-Works. Big bumps feels the same, medium bumps feel the same, and small bumps feels the same. I ride many of the same roads over-and-over, and I know 'em all like the back of my hand. Granted, this is completely non-scientific, but then again, science would be of dubious value if it proved a difference that you simply can’t feel.

The Look seems to absorb high vibrations slightly better, but to be honest, I have to really try to notice this. It’s something that I could probably mimic on the S-Works by letting out about 5lbs of tire pressure. Also, it would be easy to explain some of this by noting the differences in Specialized carbon fork technology (circa 2003) vs. Look fork technology (2005), and the difference in seat posts (27.2 mm diameter FSA carbon on the Specialized, and 25 mm diameter USE on the Look). The difference in fork feel is quite noticeable, with the Look being far superior (similar handling with better vibration and road-noise absorption).

The Look frame feels less-stiff than the S-Works, which is not what I expected. Now, I’m talking about two different types of stiffness - there’s stiffness when you’re sprinting, and there’s stiffness when you’re just riding along. In the former, I think stiffness is a virtue, in the latter I think it’s an undesired quality. The marketing of carbon frames generally hinges on its ability to deliver both - stiffness and comfort (vertical compliance).

I’m a thin guy (155ish lbs.) and I can only put out about 900 watts in a sprint, so I’m not exactly crushing the pedals or anything. I’m primarily a climber, with much of my climbing being on mountain roads between 7% and 13% grade, which means I’m out of the saddle fairly often with brief spells of 400-500 watts. The carbon frame feels sluggish and more flexible in both situations (same cranks and bb on both bikes).

Without spending too much time hashing out the lesser points, my opinion of these two frames (and only these two frames - this isn’t a study of aluminum vs. carbon in general), is that the benefits of the carbon frame (reduced transfer of high-frequency vibration) is, for me, far outweighed by the detriment of reduced stiffness. For me, the primary selling point of carbon was that you got both a more comfortable ride and improved stiffness, which are seemingly opposing ideals.

Honestly, wheel and tire choice is, on both bikes, the biggest determiner of ride characteristics. Both bikes feel harsh on Mavic Cosmic Carbones. Both bikes feel pretty comfortable on Velomax Circuits. Both bikes feel pretty springy and lively on American Classic Sprint 350s, et cetera. Gatorskins deaden the bike’s feel, Conti Sprint/Attack liven it, and Vittoria plushes it.

There are a million ways to explain away my non-scientific findings, and I understand that. However, there aren’t many ways to explain away my experience. Ultimately, for me it comes down to one thing: Are the differences between the two frames materially significant enough to justify a considerable difference in price? Not for me. If both frames were the same price, having the benefit of prior experience, I’d choose the S-Works. Perhaps this is as much a result of the type of riding I do as it is my disappointment at the lack of discernible superiority of the carbon frame (I really wanted to be blown-away, which is why I went all-out with the Look).

I’m not considering the differences in longevity of the two bikes. Carbon will probably outlast aluminum, but that’s of negligible value when most of us only keep a bike for a few years, which is far less than the life-span of most well-made carbon and aluminum bikes.

It’s also very difficult to compare the individual frames’ quality levels - i.e. perhaps the S-Works is the best-built aluminum frame on the market and the Look frame is the worst-build carbon frame on the market. In the case of the S-Works, I suppose it’s within the realm of possibility. In the case of the Look, it’s highly unlikely (it’s a monobloc frame used only in their top-end models). Personally, I’d consider the two frames to be of similar material and construction quality in their own regard.

Anyway, take my experience for what its worth. The qualities you look for in a frame may be different from mine, in which case the differences I’m experiencing could be more or less important.

I agree with your post. I got caught up in bike lust a few months ago and bought an Aegis Trident carbon frame. I sold my aluminum Yaqui Manzanita and built up this Aegis. The first time I rode it, I expected, as you put it, to be “blown away” by the ride of the Aegis. I found virtually no difference between the two bikes. I bought and built up a road frame not too long ago (an Airborne Thunderbolt, their only aluminum model and not a very expensive one at that). I found the ride of the Airborne to be no worse than the ride of the Aegis. In fact, I liked the Airborne so much that I sold the Aegis frame.

I think I actually like riding aluminum. It’s affordable, stiff, and it’s not at all uncomfortable. I found that the rough roads were still rough on the Aegis, and the smooth roads are smooth on the Airborne. I have no qualms at all about riding aluminum, and wouldn’t hesitate to buy another aluminum frame at all.

To me, bicycles should be made out of metal. I don’t plan on buying a carbon fiber frame again, although I must confess that if I hit the lottery, it would be hard to turn down a Colnago C-50 or Pinarello Montello. But I do prefer metal – steel, aluminum, titanium. Right now, I’m on aluminum, and I’m quite satisfied.

RP

To my surprise, the ride of the Look frame feels virtually identical to the S-Works. Big bumps feels the same, medium bumps feel the same, and small bumps feels the same. I ride many of the same roads over-and-over, and I know 'em all like the back of my hand. Granted, this is completely non-scientific, but then again, science would be of dubious value if it proved a difference that you simply can’t feel.

The Look frame feels less-stiff than the S-Works, which is not what I expected. Now, I’m talking about two different types of stiffness - there’s stiffness when you’re sprinting, and there’s stiffness when you’re just riding along. In the former, I think stiffness is a virtue, in the latter I think it’s an undesired quality. The marketing of carbon frames generally hinges on its ability to deliver both - stiffness and comfort (vertical compliance).

I’m shocked, shocked I tell you. Congratulations on being able to say that the Emperor has no clothes!

I would think that stiffness (when climbing out of the saddle) would be more affected by tube diameter than by material. Can you provide a comparison of the size of the tubes on these two bikes?

I also agree 100%. No more carbon bike for me, regardless of how good they have become and look (i.e. Madone, R2.5, etc.) When Cervelo finally “jumped ship” and made their perfectly good P3 out of carbon (to sell, lust, market) that did it. This is a TT bike for peats sake!

Give me 6/4 titanium please. Very stiff, indestrucible, rides great. Only downside is price which doesn’t seem to be an issue around here :slight_smile:

I also agree that wheels/tires make more of difference in riding characteristics/feel than any other single thing (except perhaps hemmorhoids)

When you’re comparing two different style frames, you’re comparing apples to oranges even if the materials were the same.

A fairer comparision is the same identical bike in two different materials such as carbon vs aluminium Giant TCR, Cervelo Soloist or P3/P3C.

BTW, my steel/carbon Lemond is much smoother than my aluminium TCR. The Lemond feels more like a steel bike than carbon which might make sense since the spine is steel and the seat tube, top tube and seat stays are carbon.

Steel is still real.

There has only been one bike where I was blown away immediately by the ride- Softride.

That being said- you are onto something about the differences being subtle. When I had one custom frame, it took me a little while to notice how noodly the BB was, but it was one of the few times this was discernable.

Frame producers try to replicate what their pro riders want out of a frame. What everyone wants is something with stiff bottom brackets, and yet the vertical compliance to make it all comfy. This is probably why the two bikes performed similar, yet differently.

Maybe the higher-end Look bikes would have exhibited different qualities in the BB, maybe not. It all depends on the layup of the fibres. Carbon can be ride-tubed, so to speak. But using cheaper fibres and a less complicated construction technique makes that less so. Who knows? But saying that they had used the same fibres in the highest-end Look bikes, I have a feeling that maybe the 486 could be more of what you are looking for. But then it would require yet another purchase to find that out.

But what you have demonstrated is that a true assessment of a bike’s ride quality cannot be done in a week or two trial, not even a month. You have also demonstrated that one’s taste is different. Would the KG 386 be great for one who has chronic injury? Would the Specialized be horrible for a guy who has chronic back problems? Would a 125 lb rider be better served on the Look 386?

But in the end, you would almost have to go to an entirely different design to be totally blown away. Double diamond bikes will ride relatively the same, save for ones that are poorly designed. You have to ride them for long periods of time to figure out all of the subtle differences.

I would like to have a titanium bike. I don’t know why; I just would. I think I’m going to hold off on my next bike purchase until I get what I’d really like to have – a Campy equipped Blade. One thing I really liked about Cervelo was they did aluminum and steel. Then Gerard and company started fiddling with carbon. I kind of raised my eyebrows, but didn’t think much of it. Now that there’s a carbon Soloist coming out, it kind of makes me scratch my head. Why? I don’t think the P3C is a better bike than the P3SL (or even the “regular” P3). And the carbon Soloist won’t be a better bike than the aluminum version. It all kind of sounds like carbon for carbon’s sake, which I think is silly. But if it makes Gerard more money, and keeps him hanging around here, that’s great. I’m not a Cervelo hater. I think they’re fine bikes, but I don’t see any real advantage to their foray into carbon bikes. Not from a performance standpoint – I do see it from a profit standpoint. Which I guess is what’s important, right?

RP

RP,

I think (and could be wrong) that Cervelo’s first bikes were made out of Carbon Fiber. They made a TT bike that was quickly deemed illegal.

http://www.cervelo.com/images/99-bar1.jpg

At least I don’t think this bike is made out of AL or steel.

I am one of the lucky few at this point who have owned both a P3 and P3C. I wish I could provide more of an expert opinion but…I would say the ride is significantly less harsh on the P3C but still fairly stiff. Maybe a 6 on a one to ten scale where the P3 would be an 8. Some of that may be attributed to going to a carbon crank as well. The new bike appears to be faster on my TT routes as well but that is hard to qualify due to variables and bike set up changes. The carbon also appears to dampen vibration better which means less fatigue on the body.

It’s not mentioned much on here but I think your choice should depend quite a bit on the quality of roads in your area. They are fairly poor around here so I went with the carbon.

Thanks for posting your thoughts. There are some things that I’m finding about my set up as well. First, you are so right about the gatorskins. I don’t know why I always chose to ride and race them, but I just switched to Vittoria Diamante Pro’s and holy crap, what a difference. The Diamante’s are bank, but feel great. For the record, the gatorskins are about .125" taller. Second, I have a steel gunnar fixed gear; an aluminum bike that used to be my road bike which is now converted to my TT, and a carbon road bike. The only bike that I can clearly tell the difference on is the gunnar. The gunnar has a steel fork that has a deep bend in the legs which give a creamy ride. Between the alum and carbon, it’s pretty net on ride quality and stiffness. I’m big for a cyclist 6’3 205, so my sprints and uphill out of the saddle efforts put some stress on the bike. I’ve done 20 crits and a couple of road races so far this year. The result, in less than a year my carbon bike has started getting multiple “clear coat cracks” (looks to me like something worse) that is such an eyesore as to make the bike “un-sellable”. Great, looks like I’ll have this bike for a while. My next bike is def going to be a cannondale or specialized aluminum - E

As I said, this is a non-scientific, biased, apples-to-oranges (ok, you said that) comparison. However, it’s also a very legitimate comparison for those who are in the same boat I was in - i.e. considering paying $$$ for the promise of a better ride through carbon engineering. I imagine my scenario (migration from bike “A” in aluminum to bike “B” in carbon) is more common than your proposed scenario (migration from bike “A” in aluminum to bike “A” in carbon). Even in your scenario, I imagine the design and construction differences between the same frame in aluminum and carbon would basically mean you’re still comparing apples to oranges, which puts us right back where we started.

I too had a carbon and alu bikes at the same time, set up almost the same in terms of measurements. They are both road race bikes. As a matter of personal preference I much prefer the alu bike as its more responsive, but in terms of vibration/road dampening etc. I could not tell the difference. Like you the biggest difference I noticed came when I changed the brand of tire. BTW the carbon was a Trek 5500 and alu is a Soloist (I ended selling the Trek)

Like other posters here I would and probably will buy another mid priced alu bike given the type of racing I do (road and crits) as you get a lot of bike for less money than some of the carbon bikes (other than a Giant carbon which is at an amazing price) With more carbon coming out I hope the prices of alu bikes drops more. A Soloist under $2000 CND with Centaur - Gerrard are you listening!

As DanE once wrote about bikes that will last forever - chances are if like bikes and ride a lot you will ended up lusting for another bike and if it is your last bike chances are you dont ride as much any more.

It ain’t no Soloist, but I’ve only got about $1450 in my Airborne Thunderbolt. It’s equipped completely with Centaur. Bought the frame, seatpost, stem, handlebars and headset directly from Airborne. I picked up the Centaur from Total Cycling. Wheels, tires, tubes came from my LBS. Nice set up for the money. In all honesty, I think it’s a nice set up anyway.

RP

Rob, I know there are a lot of really good value alu bikes out there. As an example I was in Nytro in Feb where they had a Felt with DA/FSA/Velomax for $1750 and down the road at Supergo their housebrand alu bikes equiped with DA were also very competitvely priced. However, I am willing to bet that Nytro sold more Kalibur’s road bikes than those Felts. To some extent it is a matter of personal preference which is hugely impacted by marketing, to which non of us are really immune - its only a matter of degree. Personally, I want Ves to build me a road bike, simply b/c I want a bike that is built for me by someone who seems to know what he is doing, I want to see if there is a difference. That is not going to be cheap or even mid priced!

It also goes back to the belief (sometimes quite erroneously) that the more expensive a bike is, the better it is. I sometimes catch myself looking at my $300 Airborne frame and thinking that it’s crap because it’s inexpensive. But when I’m riding, it feels like it’s worth a million bucks. For whatever reason, many of us don’t want to be seen on a bike that is inexpensive or cheap. I think a bike can be a status symbol in much the same vein as a car or house. The people who market the bike industry have done a good job of convincing us of that.

RP