I am wondering why Allen/Coggan are “prescribing” a 5 min all out effort in their test protocol before one starts with the 20 min FTP test.
In their book they are mentioning twol goals:“…open up the legs “ and “to capture one’s ability to produce watts in what is called VO2max power”
Much as understand the need for doing a 5 min all out effort I wonder if is not better to do that in a different session.
20 FTP Test is used to set up your training zones and I fear that the result is kind of distorted when you are trashing you legs for 5 minutes before the test.
Andy Coggan’s Seven Deadly Sins How to determine your Functional Threshold Power (roughly in order of increasing certainty):
from inspection of a ride file.from power distribution profile from multiple rides.from blood lactate measurements (better or worse, depending on how it is done).based on normalized power from a hard ~1 h race.using critical power testing and analysis.from the power that you can routinely generate during long intervals done in training.from the average power during a ~1 h TT (the best predictor of performance is performance itself).
Note the key words “hard”, “routinely”, and “average” in methods 4, 6, and 7…
Just deducting 5% from a 20 minute effort may not be representative of FTP.
My understanding is that even in a 20 min test there will be some initial recruitment of fast twitch muscle fibers (i.e., stuff that is not going to be there for you over 60 minutes). The 5 minutes at max helps to deplete those so they don’t skew your results.
If you are sufficiently motivated and fresh you might be able to lay down a 20min power that would suggest a FTP higher than actual. If you don’t want to do the 5 minute opener then you should probably do a 2x20 (2min rest) test and take 95% of that average. If you are very new to power then I would suggest you just ride your bike around, do some hard workouts, group rides, easy rides and inspect the files to learn how your body performs. Once you have learned pacing and have a ballpark idea of what your FTP is then go out and do a 1hr TT or the 2x20 test.
or we could avoid testing all together by looking at the rest of your training data
This is one of my (highly unqualified) criticisms of the Allen/Coggin’s bible. It assumes that during your training rides that there are portions when you are riding as hard and as long as possible. If that were the case, it would make sense that the drop off in % time above LT would be evident in your training data. If I don’t put in such efforts in my training, such a drop off would not exist. This could be for a variety of “real world” reasons (e.g. you don’t try to drop weaker training partners, your training route does not include long stretches without downhill efforts or intersections, you just aren’t working hard enough in training, you are holding back for your brick run, etc). I don’t do TTs so the closest data I get are from race efforts and dedicated LT efforts on the trainer. In a race, I don’t go all out as I need to have something for the run. After the Coggins LT test, I struggle to do 50% of FTP for several minutes so running would be out of the question. Thus, I put the most belief in the testing protocol. I dread the test more than races but the FTP calculations seem to agree with my perceived exertion (i.e. a bit below FTP is tough but manageable whereas slightly above FTP highly unpleasant). The 5’ max sustainable effort is something I just do because smarter beings insist and it is based on rational thinking (e.g. limiting the contribution of fast twitch fibers, anaerobic strength & increasing muscle perfusion).
I wish I had the stones to do the all out 60’ efforts. That makes IM bike leg seem like a leisurely spin through the park in my book. Maybe I just need to up my dose of HTFU!
I think people tend to worry about their FTP number too much. There is variance in FTP depending on riding position, altitude, where you are in your training cycle, and a bunch of other factors… as well as uncertainty in the NP algorithm. Its purpose is to give you a ballpark estimate of your training load and intensity… that’s it.
Get it close…adjust it if/when it looks necessary… and forget about it.
I think people tend to worry about their FTP number too much. There is variance in FTP depending on riding position, altitude, where you are in your training cycle, and a bunch of other factors… as well as uncertainty in the NP algorithm. Its purpose is to give you a ballpark estimate of your training load and intensity… that’s it.
Get it close…adjust it if/when it looks necessary… and forget about it.
Not to hijack, but I will. Another test question is whether to use the powermeter to gauge your output during the test, or do it blind (watts taped over on meter). If I have the powermeter watts reading available, I can judge my ride and pace versus 300 watts, but if blind, I truly will judge pace by feel and go as hard as possible…don’t know what the answer is. I did it on Monday, with watts taped over, and was surprised by results.
i haven’t really done what i would call a ‘true’ ftp test. i have a darn good idea what mine is just through training/racing/training/racing…
i know that last night i did a set of 3x10 with increasing effort by 15-20w for each. the first one i thought i set kinda high, but the second one i was able to up the avg watts by 17w, the third one i thought ‘no way, i’m spent’ but was still able to up the watts again another 15w. i was spent at the end of the 3rd round, but i still wondered if i could do it again?
that’s the beauty/evil of a Power meter for me… i play a game of ‘out run the avg power’.
so, i wonder if a test with the numbers hidden would result in the same effort or not? hard to say with out just doing it.
I don’t know that taping it over is neccessary, but it might be if you know what your previous test results were. I did a 20 min pwr test on Tuesday, but I couldn’t remember what my result was during the fall, so I didn’t have a frame of reference for what I “should” but putting out. If I had a number in mind at the start of the test, I’m sure it could have impacted my results.
I think people tend to worry about their FTP number too much. There is variance in FTP depending on riding position, altitude, where you are in your training cycle, and a bunch of other factors… as well as uncertainty in the NP algorithm. Its purpose is to give you a ballpark estimate of your training load and intensity… that’s it.
Get it close…adjust it if/when it looks necessary… and forget about it.
Agree. The people who get obsessed by FTP often don’t understand the difference between training WITH power and training BY power.
Agree. The people who get obsessed by FTP often don’t understand the difference between training WITH power and training BY power.
Yep… and for those who are wondering if you should tape over the display or not… the PM is good for two things.
Not overdoing the first 5 minutes of a race… if you are prone to that (I am).
Evaluation after your workout or race.
Pace by feel. Ignore the numbers until afterward. Your consciousness should be centered on your physical sensations (ie really getting in tune with your body) and a positive mental attitude.
what would be wrong with using the PM as a motivational tool on days that are supposed to be really hard?
Stare at that motherfer and do not let is drop below X where X is an ambitious goal?
Agree. The people who get obsessed by FTP often don’t understand the difference between training WITH power and training BY power.
Yep… and for those who are wondering if you should tape over the display or not… the PM is good for two things.
Not overdoing the first 5 minutes of a race… if you are prone to that (I am).
Evaluation after your workout or race.
Pace by feel. Ignore the numbers until afterward. Your consciousness should be centered on your physical sensations (ie really getting in tune with your body) and a positive mental attitude.
what would be wrong with using the PM as a motivational tool on days that are supposed to be really hard?
Stare at that motherfer and do not let is drop below X where X is an ambitious goal?
if all your workouts are like that then you/your coach arent training effectively. but regardless, a powermeter is the ultimate speedometer even if you dont like the analyzing the numbers, and anyone would benefit from using it.
for training purposes, id round my ftp down to the nearest 10 watts.
what would be wrong with using the PM as a motivational tool on days that are supposed to be really hard?
Stare at that motherfer and do not let is drop below X where X is an ambitious goal?
Agree. The people who get obsessed by FTP often don’t understand the difference between training WITH power and training BY power.
Yep… and for those who are wondering if you should tape over the display or not… the PM is good for two things.
Not overdoing the first 5 minutes of a race… if you are prone to that (I am).
Evaluation after your workout or race.
Pace by feel. Ignore the numbers until afterward. Your consciousness should be centered on your physical sensations (ie really getting in tune with your body) and a positive mental attitude.
That is exactly what I do with mine. I bought a power tap about a year ago and that is exactly what I have found most useful with having power. On intervals or TT type workouts, I set my minumum wattage I want to sustain and make sure I don’t go below it. It gives me something to chase.
If I need to go hard, staring at a number only gets in the way. I much prefer getting familiar with what it feels like to be on the edge… and of course slightly over… have to know what that feels like.
IMO a race or even a hard workout is like meditation… and numbers just distract me from what I need to focus on. I understand that others might have different things going on… whatever works.