Algerian female Boxer?

Lavender Room
1

Imane Khelif, XY chromosomes and high testosterone? Lin Yu-Ting same thing?

Wtf IOC? (Edit: This one still somewhat valid)

This doesn’t seem like it should be so difficult except in true intersex, which doesn’t appear to be the case for either of these two athletes? (Edit: wrong)

Testosterone seems to be a poor measuring stick by itself, as there are sure to be naturally occurring outliers and I don’t think those individuals should be excluded.

But chromosomal tests showing xy combined with high testosterone???

Yikes.

Seems pretty simple. (Edit: nope)

2

Imane Khelif, XY chromosomes and high testosterone? Lin Yu-Ting same thing?

WTF IOC???

This doesn’t seem like it should be so difficult except in true intersex, which doesn’t appear to be the case for either of these two athletes?

Testosterone seems to be a poor measuring stick by itself, as there are sure to be naturally occurring outliers and I don’t think those individuals should be excluded.

But chromosomal tests showing xy combined with high testosterone???

Yikes.

Seems pretty simple.

Wasnt Jamie lee Curtis born with XY chromosome? It seems like there is a disorder that can lead to it.

This is a MUCH more interesting question than if transgender people can compete. I remember a couple of years ago a similar thing happened to a runner when her testoterone was high - and they said she was taking PEDs.

3

Can you point to the genetic test that showed xy?

4

You say this doesn’t appear to be an intersex case. What’s the basis for that?

Don’t know much about the Chinese boxer, but the Algerian boxer apparently has been assigned and treated as female from birth.

This doesn’t seem to be a transgender thing at all.

5

Imane Khelif, XY chromosomes and high testosterone? Lin Yu-Ting same thing?

WTF IOC???

This doesn’t seem like it should be so difficult except in true intersex, which doesn’t appear to be the case for either of these two athletes?

Testosterone seems to be a poor measuring stick by itself, as there are sure to be naturally occurring outliers and I don’t think those individuals should be excluded.

But chromosomal tests showing xy combined with high testosterone???

Yikes.

Seems pretty simple.

Wasnt Jamie lee Curtis born with XY chromosome? It seems like there is a disorder that can lead to it.

This is a MUCH more interesting question than if transgender people can compete. I remember a couple of years ago a similar thing happened to a runner when her testoterone was high - and they said she was taking PEDs.

There are some rather rare chromosomal situations with such as xxy so it can be complicated. Seems like the actual gray area is being used as a tool to justify or hide some simple rules violations.

6

Can you point to the genetic test that showed xy?

I dont even think this matters. https://novonordiskfonden.dk/...are-genetically-men/

Sex chromosomes usually determine whether you are female or male. Women are XX. Men are XY. However, genetically, a few women are actually men. They grow up as women with a woman’s body, and most only discover well into puberty that they are different. Danish researchers map for the first time how many women are genetically men. The proportion was higher than expected.

“Girls born with XY chromosomes are genetically boys but for a variety of reasons – mutations in genes that determine sexual development – the male characteristics are never expressed. They live their lives as girls and then women, and a few can even give birth. Our research, which is the first nationwide survey in the world, shows that this group is up to 50% larger than previously assumed. How these girls discover the facts and talk openly about their situation also varies greatly,” explains Claus Højbjerg Gravholt, who led the study and is Clinical Professor in the Department of Clinical Medicine of Aarhus University.

Morris syndrome is now called 46,XY DSD: androgen insensitivity syndrome. These people have an extremely high level of testosterone and other male sex hormones, but the testosterone does not affect the foetal cells that usually develop into male sexual organs because of a mutation in the androgen receptor gene. These people therefore have male chromosomes but are women socially and in external appearance. They do not have internal female sexual organs, and they form testicles that remain concealed in the abdominal cavity.

7

A note of clarification. IOC for about 6 years now no longer controls or manages issues which may relate to Biological sex. Transitioning athletes, XY at birth, high natural T etc.

This is all managed at the individual sports federation level.

Maurice

8

Imane Khelif, XY chromosomes and high testosterone? Lin Yu-Ting same thing?

WTF IOC???

This doesn’t seem like it should be so difficult except in true intersex, which doesn’t appear to be the case for either of these two athletes?

Testosterone seems to be a poor measuring stick by itself, as there are sure to be naturally occurring outliers and I don’t think those individuals should be excluded.

But chromosomal tests showing xy combined with high testosterone???

Yikes.

Seems pretty simple.

Wasnt Jamie lee Curtis born with XY chromosome? It seems like there is a disorder that can lead to it

doesn’t she have klinefelters?

9

Imane Khelif, XY chromosomes and high testosterone? Lin Yu-Ting same thing?

WTF IOC???

This doesn’t seem like it should be so difficult except in true intersex, which doesn’t appear to be the case for either of these two athletes?

Testosterone seems to be a poor measuring stick by itself, as there are sure to be naturally occurring outliers and I don’t think those individuals should be excluded.

But chromosomal tests showing xy combined with high testosterone???

Yikes.

Seems pretty simple.

Wasnt Jamie lee Curtis born with XY chromosome? It seems like there is a disorder that can lead to it

doesn’t she have klinefelters?

I have zero clue. But it does seem like people born female can have XY chromosomes.

If people want to make sports XY and XX - I am fine with that. But that doesnt seem to be the current rulings.

10

Imane Khelif, XY chromosomes and high testosterone? Lin Yu-Ting same thing?

WTF IOC???

This doesn’t seem like it should be so difficult except in true intersex, which doesn’t appear to be the case for either of these two athletes?

Testosterone seems to be a poor measuring stick by itself, as there are sure to be naturally occurring outliers and I don’t think those individuals should be excluded.

But chromosomal tests showing xy combined with high testosterone???

Yikes.

Seems pretty simple.

Wasnt Jamie lee Curtis born with XY chromosome? It seems like there is a disorder that can lead to it

doesn’t she have klinefelters?

I have zero clue. But it does seem like people born female can have XY chromosomes.

If people want to make sports XY and XX - I am fine with that. But that doesnt seem to be the current rulings.

It is also super complicated.

Because it is not unheard of for some cells to be XX and some XY. It probably matters which cells are XY and which are XX. Maybe it even depends on the sport. How many samples do you take? Do you muscle biopsies?

Or do you need to look for internal testes? How large do these need to be to disqualify someone? Do these themselves give an advantage?

People need to understand that this shit is not straightforward at all and that it is not nearly as simple as XX and XY.

11

Imane Khelif, XY chromosomes and high testosterone? Lin Yu-Ting same thing?

WTF IOC???

This doesn’t seem like it should be so difficult except in true intersex, which doesn’t appear to be the case for either of these two athletes?

Testosterone seems to be a poor measuring stick by itself, as there are sure to be naturally occurring outliers and I don’t think those individuals should be excluded.

But chromosomal tests showing xy combined with high testosterone???

Yikes.

Seems pretty simple.

Wasnt Jamie lee Curtis born with XY chromosome? It seems like there is a disorder that can lead to it

doesn’t she have klinefelters?

I have zero clue. But it does seem like people born female can have XY chromosomes.

If people want to make sports XY and XX - I am fine with that. But that doesnt seem to be the current rulings.

It is also super complicated.

Because it is not unheard of for some cells to be XX and some XY. It probably matters which cells are XY and which are XX. Maybe it even depends on the sport. How many samples do you take? Do you muscle biopsies?

Or do you need to look for internal testes? How large do these need to be to disqualify someone? Do these themselves give an advantage?

People need to understand that this shit is not straightforward at all and that it is not nearly as simple as XX and XY.

completely agree.

Another thing in sports, is that a lot of athletes are genetic freaks. I dont know how we would handle people with genetic disorders/advantages from competing in sports (such as the high anaerobic levels in most sprinters/ability to process lactic acid in distance runners/etc.)

12

Imane Khelif, XY chromosomes and high testosterone? Lin Yu-Ting same thing?

WTF IOC???

This doesn’t seem like it should be so difficult except in true intersex, which doesn’t appear to be the case for either of these two athletes?

Testosterone seems to be a poor measuring stick by itself, as there are sure to be naturally occurring outliers and I don’t think those individuals should be excluded.

But chromosomal tests showing xy combined with high testosterone???

Yikes.

Seems pretty simple.

Wasnt Jamie lee Curtis born with XY chromosome? It seems like there is a disorder that can lead to it

doesn’t she have klinefelters?

I have zero clue. But it does seem like people born female can have XY chromosomes.

If people want to make sports XY and XX - I am fine with that. But that doesnt seem to be the current rulings.

It is also super complicated.

Because it is not unheard of for some cells to be XX and some XY. It probably matters which cells are XY and which are XX. Maybe it even depends on the sport. How many samples do you take? Do you muscle biopsies?

Or do you need to look for internal testes? How large do these need to be to disqualify someone? Do these themselves give an advantage?

People need to understand that this shit is not straightforward at all and that it is not nearly as simple as XX and XY.

completely agree.

Another thing in sports, is that a lot of athletes are genetic freaks. I dont know how we would handle people with genetic disorders/advantages from competing in sports (such as the high anaerobic levels in most sprinters/ability to process lactic acid in distance runners/etc.)
or even morphological outliers like is the case with some swimmers like Michael Phelps. He was literally built to swim… this whole area of difference is not tenable, and trying to qualify female vs male is not much easier and maybe a fools errand. On any account per current IOC rules vs what is current for the IBA rules the person in question qualified for the sport.

13

Imane Khelif, XY chromosomes and high testosterone? Lin Yu-Ting same thing?

WTF IOC???

This doesn’t seem like it should be so difficult except in true intersex, which doesn’t appear to be the case for either of these two athletes?

Testosterone seems to be a poor measuring stick by itself, as there are sure to be naturally occurring outliers and I don’t think those individuals should be excluded.

But chromosomal tests showing xy combined with high testosterone???

Yikes.

Seems pretty simple.

Wasnt Jamie lee Curtis born with XY chromosome? It seems like there is a disorder that can lead to it

doesn’t she have klinefelters?

I have zero clue. But it does seem like people born female can have XY chromosomes.

If people want to make sports XY and XX - I am fine with that. But that doesnt seem to be the current rulings.

It is also super complicated.

Because it is not unheard of for some cells to be XX and some XY. It probably matters which cells are XY and which are XX. Maybe it even depends on the sport. How many samples do you take? Do you muscle biopsies?

Or do you need to look for internal testes? How large do these need to be to disqualify someone? Do these themselves give an advantage?

People need to understand that this shit is not straightforward at all and that it is not nearly as simple as XX and XY.

completely agree.

Another thing in sports, is that a lot of athletes are genetic freaks. I dont know how we would handle people with genetic disorders/advantages from competing in sports (such as the high anaerobic levels in most sprinters/ability to process lactic acid in distance runners/etc.)
or even morphological outliers like is the case with some swimmers like Michael Phelps. He was literally built to swim… this whole area of difference is not tenable, and trying to qualify female vs male is not much easier and maybe a fools errand. On any account per current IOC rules vs what is current for the IBA rules the person in question qualified for the sport.

I was kinda surprised when I saw a bunch of right wing nut jobs post about these boxers - because I thought the olympics didnt allow transgender people to compete (the swimmer case).

it just seems that most of it is from bigotry. For the record, I dont think transgender m–>f should be able to compete in womens sports. But if you are born a woman, and just have some strange advantage that allows you to compete in a historically male sport (boxing), so be it. I am not going to only allow basketball to be played by people within 1 standard deviation of avg. height. (being 6’6"+ is strange).

14

This is a MUCH more interesting question than if transgender people can compete. I remember a couple of years ago a similar thing happened to a runner when her testoterone was high - and they said she was taking PEDs.

I may get this wrong but from what I remember from genetics courses and reading about this…

We all basically start off as female, and there are a few key genes (1 really important one) on the Y chromosome that result in males. If that gene is non functional, a person would be XY but have female anatomy. I believe it’s also possilbe that in the father the X an Y genes can swap material so if that key gene got swapped out and his Y chromosome doesn’t have it any longer he could pass that on to his XY child. Also there are conditions where the person’s androgen receptors are dysfunctional, so there is no masculinizing effects of testosterone.

15

Jeffrey eugeniedes wrote a book called Middlesex which explored related issues

The book is amazing

The medicine is complicated
.

16

A note of clarification. IOC for about 6 years now no longer controls or manages issues which may relate to Biological sex. Transitioning athletes, XY at birth, high natural T etc.

This is all managed at the individual sports federation level.

Maurice

I just read something that said the IBA barred the two XY boxers in question from competing last year but recently the IOC “stripped the IBA from its role in governance for the Paris games.”

I haven’t read more about it but that makes it difficult to claim the control was out of the IOC’s hands seeing as how they didn’t allow the sport’s federation to govern. Again, unless I missed something which is possible in my cursory search.

17

A note of clarification. IOC for about 6 years now no longer controls or manages issues which may relate to Biological sex. Transitioning athletes, XY at birth, high natural T etc.

This is all managed at the individual sports federation level.

Maurice

In this particular situation, the IOC chose to invalidate the governing body, which had previously declared both of these athletes ineligible because of gender uncertainty. IOC took over control of boxing, so this is in fact their issue.

18

People need to understand that this shit is not straightforward at all and that it is not nearly as simple as XX and XY.

I think a lot of people understand this, especially at the higher levels of federations, which is why they try to be as clear cut as possible when it comes to setting their own regulations.

For instance, in this sport the IBA has their standards and apparently last year these two athletes failed to meet the criteria and were not allowed to compete.

It doesn’t matter how complicated the science is because the reality is sport is a luxury/privilege. And sports federations do their best to make it as fair as possible most of the time (corruption aside).

So, using your own line, I would argue that because it can get complicated people need to understand that sports federations need to MAKE it as straightforward as possible and sometimes thats as simple as identifying is a Y chromosome is present and designating divisions based on that factor.

I think we find that at almost every level of sport they try to keep the playing field as level as possible for as many as possible.

19

A note of clarification. IOC for about 6 years now no longer controls or manages issues which may relate to Biological sex. Transitioning athletes, XY at birth, high natural T etc.

This is all managed at the individual sports federation level.

Maurice

I just read something that said the IBA barred the two XY boxers in question from competing last year but recently the IOC “stripped the IBA from its role in governance for the Paris games.”

I haven’t read more about it but that makes it difficult to claim the control was out of the IOC’s hands seeing as how they didn’t allow the sport’s federation to govern. Again, unless I missed something which is possible in my cursory search.
I go my info from Reuters:
https://www.reuters.com/sports/olympics/boxing-algerian-boxers-next-opponent-not-scared-gender-debate-boils-2024-08-01/ “The Algerian was ruled eligible to compete in the boxing competition at the Paris Olympics, which is being organised by the International Olympic Committee.”
which indicates that the IBA sanctioned the fighter but for the current games the IOC NOT the IBA is the governing entity and they allowed the boxer to compete based upon their rules.

20

A note of clarification. IOC for about 6 years now no longer controls or manages issues which may relate to Biological sex. Transitioning athletes, XY at birth, high natural T etc.

This is all managed at the individual sports federation level.

Maurice

In this particular situation, the IOC chose to invalidate the governing body, which had previously declared both of these athletes ineligible because of gender uncertainty. IOC took over control of boxing, so this is in fact their issue.

Ahhh OK, I was unaware of the whole IBA vs IOC going way back to 2019. You are correct IOC is in charge of boxing since Tokyo.

Maurice