No really, they’re serious!
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No really, they’re serious!
Catchy thread title, but of course, not really what the article says at all.
I think they’re largely moving in the right direction, with functional math education at the community college level, given that data.
Racist?
I went to a community college for Computer Networking and Technical Support. There was no high level math course. Why? It’s not required for the job.
I don’t see the issue here.
If they are going to have to do a math statistics would be a better choice.
Why do you need algebra as a pre-requisite to a CC diploma, hell do away with it as a pre-requisite for any non-STEM degrees across the board.
That said making diplomas easier to obtain also isn’t the answer to what ails this country. There should be MORE of a focus on STEM degrees because that’s where jobs largely are, sure you can get an associates at a community college but if there are no jobs in the field of study how does that really help? So I see what they’re trying to do but it’s not going to help if jobs aren’t available after the degree.
I dunno. Our culture seems to consistently react to “folks are having trouble meeting the standard” by “lets lower the standard”. That’s the wrong answer. The way to get a lot out of folks is set expectations high and then encourage them to get there. Setting expectations low always always results in getting less out of people. We want our culture to encourage it’s citizens to be high achievers, not create a death-by-small cuts situation where we gradually turn ourselves into slugs.
We have 3 boys, 12, 12 & 14. I’ve been working with them on math since Kindergarten. 20min every day or twice that if they want to play video games. #1 son, who starts 9th grade next month, just completed Algebra 2 which puts him 3yrs ahead of where I was at his age. He’ll take pre-calculus as a 9th grader. Helping your kid succeed in school is not rocket science. The parents just have to make school a priority so the kid understands that they’re expected to work hard in school.
We aren’t talking about school. We’re talking about community college. When you are in college you should be focusing on what your career will be.
If you don’t need calculus, why force the students to take it?
We aren’t talking about school. We’re talking about community college. When you are in college you should be focusing on what your career will be.
If you don’t need calculus, why force the students to take it?
Not calculus, algebra.
Apply the “don’t need” measuring stick to all college classes then. Which of your college classes survives that filter? I came out of school as a mechanical engineer, one of the 10% of the survivors of that program. En route I took lots of general ed courses. Which of those, engineering, math, physics, and general ed classes, did I ultimately “need”? Zero of them.
As a matter of course, I would argue, one should be very cautious before lowering any standard of human achievement. Humans react to lower standards with lower performance. As we all know, humans are capable of incredible, practically magical shit. But the way to ensure that you don’t get any extra effort, is to lower expectations.
As a matter of course, I would argue, one should be very cautious before lowering any standard of human achievement.
One should also not be quick to assume that a changed standard is necessarily a lowered standard.
I’d love it if people were all interested in and exposed to a wide variety of intellectual interests, but that simply isn’t reality. Especially these days (as compared to 50 years ago, for example), a much higher portion of available jobs simply require a college degree of some kind. This requirement is not necessarily because college level education is required for the job, but just because it’s a way to discriminate between applicants. So if people are prevented from being competitive in the job market because of a piece of paper that doesn’t really have much to do with whether or not they’re qualified to do the job, it might make sense to adjust what it takes to get that piece of paper so that it’s more in line with job requirements.
There’s a reason we have a minimum standard. Good enough is good enough. If good enough doesn’t require algebra, but rather statistics or some other types of math, then there’s not much good reason to force people to study algebra.
As a matter of course, I would argue, one should be very cautious before lowering any standard of human achievement.
One should also not be quick to assume that a changed standard is necessarily a lowered standard.
If the problem is that algebra is too hard, what’s the likelihood that the math alternatives will be more difficult?
As a matter of course, I would argue, one should be very cautious before lowering any standard of human achievement.
One should also not be quick to assume that a changed standard is necessarily a lowered standard.
If the problem is that algebra is too hard, what’s the likelihood that the math alternatives will be more difficult?
The problem stated in the article is that algebra is too hard, and isn’t necessary for the career paths these people are headed towards. I have a history degree. It’s a B.S. because the Naval Academy requires midshipmen to take a large amount of science, math, and engineering courses, none of which are pertinent to a history degree, and many of which are not particularly relevant to being a Naval officer. Harder is not necessarily better.
Imagine if a cadet at West Point had to pass a course in Naval Engineering to graduate, and many cadets were having trouble getting through that course. It would be perfectly reasonable to take that course requirement away, both because it’s too hard and because it’s not really pertinent or necessary to what they’re studying to become.
As a matter of course, I would argue, one should be very cautious before lowering any standard of human achievement.
One should also not be quick to assume that a changed standard is necessarily a lowered standard.
If the problem is that algebra is too hard, what’s the likelihood that the math alternatives will be more difficult?
The problem stated in the article is that algebra is too hard, and isn’t necessary for the career paths these people are headed towards. I have a history degree. It’s a B.S. because the Naval Academy requires midshipmen to take a large amount of science, math, and engineering courses, none of which are pertinent to a history degree, and many of which are not particularly relevant to being a Naval officer. Harder is not necessarily better.
Imagine if a cadet at West Point had to pass a course in Naval Engineering to graduate, and many cadets were having trouble getting through that course. It would be perfectly reasonable to take that course requirement away, both because it’s too hard and because it’s not really pertinent or necessary to what they’re studying to become.
I hear you, but we’re not talking about a course in Naval Engineering, a course I also took in a brief dalliance with Navy ROTC. We’re talking about Algebra 1, which our boys started on during 6th grade.
I’m not exactly saying “harder is better”. I’m not advocating making anything harder. I’m advocating caution when lowering a relatively low standard that has been in place for a long time. When folks are having problems meeting a tried and true standard, lowering that standard should not be the solution of first resort. Helping motivate folks to work harder should get huge huge effort first. And only if we find that for some reason that course of action, motivating folks to work harder, just can’t get it done because we’ve all become dumber, should we then contemplate lowering the standard that’s been in place for decades in colleges and, of course, HS’s too.
Unless a kid has cognitive issues, Algebra 1 just isn’t that hard. Imo what we’re really facing here is our standard “folks don’t want to work hard, but then complain when they don’t succeed”. Misguided sympathizers get involved and rather then encouraging the kids to work harder, they lower the standard". This teaches one that complaining can be a effective alternative to hard work.
Our 12yr olds will probably have Algebra 1 done in 6 months, after which they’ll move on to Geometry. They’re moving thru it pretty fast because they’re desperate to play video games so they do a lot of math in order to earn that video game time. Algebra1 is just not that hard. If our 6th graders can figure it out, I’ve no sympathy for college kids that should be seeing it for the second time, most HS’s either requiring Algebra 1, or offering alternative classwork that at least danced around it’s edges.
When folks are having problems meeting a tried and true standard, lowering that standard should not be the solution of first resort.
And what the people in the article seem to be saying is that requiring algebra is not a tried and true standard. It’s just the standard we’ve been using, without much actual justification. They’re studying whether or not it’s a reasonable standard to have or not, and if not, what to replace it with.
When folks are having problems meeting a tried and true standard, lowering that standard should not be the solution of first resort.
And what the people in the article seem to be saying is that requiring algebra is not a tried and true standard. It’s just the standard we’ve been using, without much actual justification. They’re studying whether or not it’s a reasonable standard to have or not, and if not, what to replace it with.
I think we’re defining “tried and true” differently. The standard has been around at community colleges and HS’s for a long time, w/o creating disaster. That is how I’d define “tried and true”.
A college degree isn’t just about specific coursework. One of the values of a college degree is that it’s supposed to be an indication that you made it thru a demanding academic curriculum, and therefore inferences can be made re. gumption and attention to detail. Sure, there’s all sorts of flaws with the idea, but the harder the degree is to attain, the fewer flaws there are in the general idea. My point is that there is value in college degrees being difficult to earn. Eliminating each class with content of questionable life-long value will result in the loss of pretty much every college class.
The larger point tho is that this is really about complaining be attempted as an alternative to hard work. These community college kids were already offered, and many of them required, to take Algebra in HS. And Algebra 1 just isn’t that hard. We, as a culture, do folks a terrible disservice by making it easy for humans to never work hard, to never really have to “apply themselves”. We turn them into slugs. The irony is, that we do that damage, we turn people into slugs, only with the most noble intentions of “helping them”.
I think we’re defining “tried and true” differently. The standard has been around at community colleges and HS’s for a long time, w/o creating disaster. That is how I’d define “tried and true”.
So your argument seems to essentially boil down to, “this is how we’ve always done it.”
One of the values of a college degree is that it’s supposed to be an indication that you made it thru a demanding academic curriculum, and therefore inferences can be made re. gumption and attention.
Used to be,…not anymore. Now, a college degree can be earned online, in person, in a variety of specialties or focuses, etc. Because we’ve made the mistake of insisting that every person should be able to get a degree, we can’t insist that it also has to indicate some higher level of gumption or effort. If we want everyone to be able to get a degree, we have to accept that a degree means something different now than it used to.
My point is that there is value in college degrees being difficult to earn.
Sure there is, but it’s not value toward the purpose of those degrees in today’s job market, which is the subject being addressed. Sure, if you’re an upper middle class person who can afford to pay for an “education and college experience” there’s much to be gained from that. However, if you just need to get a degree so you can get a job to subsist on, the value of unnecessarily making the degree difficult to get diminishes quickly.
Algebra is pretty basic to almost any math problem. people might not know they are using algebra, but they are. If have a ration of something and want to ask what if I adjust one how do adjust the other quantity that is algebra. Simple stuff like that comes in most fields.
If by community college we are talking tech programs, then maybe algebra is not needed, but CC also leads to BS degrees for some. I would hope they can do algebra.
The odd thing about this discussion is that my parents graduating HS in 1930, learned algebra, Geometry proofs, Latin, and other subject that were much harder in HS. Those are not longer required for HS anymore, but farm kids could learn that material in 1920’s. I thought younger generations are supposed to be smarter, but it seems we hold them to easier standards.
I thought younger generations are supposed to be smarter, but it seems we hold them to easier standards.
But if you make it hard, how are all the students going to get an A and make the school look good?** **
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I think we’re defining “tried and true” differently. The standard has been around at community colleges and HS’s for a long time, w/o creating disaster. That is how I’d define “tried and true”.
So your argument seems to essentially boil down to, “this is how we’ve always done it.”
**That’s one of my arguments yes. Change is not trivial. An argument for change must bear the burden of strong justification. **
One of the values of a college degree is that it’s supposed to be an indication that you made it thru a demanding academic curriculum, and therefore inferences can be made re. gumption and attention.
Used to be,…not anymore. Now, a college degree can be earned online, in person, in a variety of specialties or focuses, etc. Because we’ve made the mistake of insisting that every person should be able to get a degree, we can’t insist that it also has to indicate some higher level of gumption or effort. If we want everyone to be able to get a degree, we have to accept that a degree means something different now than it used to.
**I agree with your point, but I’d rather slow down the loss of “college means something” rather than accelerate it. **
My point is that there is value in college degrees being difficult to earn.
Sure there is, but it’s not value toward the purpose of those degrees in today’s job market, which is the subject being addressed. Sure, if you’re an upper middle class person who can afford to pay for an “education and college experience” there’s much to be gained from that. However, if you just need to get a degree so you can get a job to subsist on, the value of unnecessarily making the degree difficult to get diminishes quickly.
The “if you just need to get a degree so you can get a job to subsist on” is silly. Getting a 2yr or 4yr degree in an area that is perceived as an easy degree, and therefore a degree that is common as dirt, doesn’t do much to get one a decent job. Lots of roads to a decent living have nothing to do with college.
We have a college in town, a “university” actually, that bears the following appalling statistics. Graduates of the university, on average, make less $$ then kids from this area that don’t go to college at all. That is to say, getting a degree from that college lowers your income. Wow!
How about this compromise? My only real objection to losing Algebra as a requirement is that we’d be doing it because “it’s hard”. I think “hard” has lots of value. So, just as a thought experiment, if we could magically add a difficult course to each college curriculum, a critical course, and the course had a slightly higher failure rate than Algebra 1, I’d be good with that.