Age group to pro

Triathlon Forum
1

i know there are quite a few posters on ST who have raced as age groupers, some who have raced as pros, and a few who race as age groupers but who are eligible to race as a pro.

i was reading the interview of R. Flynn and his statement got me to thinking:

ST: Your time was well down compared to the top pros, plus you and all other age groupers have other age group bikes to slingshot forward. Do you think you would have gone as fast as you did had you started as a pro?

Ricky: Yeah I think I would have been more likely to have a faster time if I started as a pro. Not saying I would have gone a ton faster but little things like starting earlier and it not being as hot during the run would help as well as having a much more convenient transition set up in addition to other things.

Is it a common thought to believe that if you were in the pro field you would suddenly be faster on the same courses? At this race especially I think Ricky is quite wrong on this front (with the exception of the transition, pros had a distinct advantage over AG there, but it wasn’t really that hot starting at 8:20 vs 7:30), the main reasons being that he would’ve worn a swim skin and would not have had anybody to draft off/slingshot/etc in the pro field. The only people for whom that statement MIGHT be true are the uber age group swimmers. They may race a little bit faster in the pro field due to being in the pack for the swim but overall they are much more likely to blow up and have poorer race results as a consequence. Anyway, just found that tidbit interesting.

2

Agree with the swim skin v wetsuits. On the other hand, the swim and bike courses were CROWDED. On the bike, trying to pass people while they pass people while staying left of yellow line slows you way down because sometimes you have to wait. Plus, very few people knew how to descend and weaved all over the already very crowded roads, so you have to slow down. On the second half of the bike, cars going the same direction mixed in with the cyclists which caused huge slowdowns. We had to wait and pass them illegally into oncoming traffic. The run did heat up toward the end. Starting earlier prevents all of this.

3

i know there are quite a few posters on ST who have raced as age groupers, some who have raced as pros, and a few who race as age groupers but who are eligible to race as a pro.

i was reading the interview of R. Flynn and his statement got me to thinking:

ST: Your time was well down compared to the top pros, plus you and all other age groupers have other age group bikes to slingshot forward. Do you think you would have gone as fast as you did had you started as a pro?

Ricky: Yeah I think I would have been more likely to have a faster time if I started as a pro. Not saying I would have gone a ton faster but little things like starting earlier and it not being as hot during the run would help as well as having a much more convenient transition set up in addition to other things.

Is it a common thought to believe that if you were in the pro field you would suddenly be faster on the same courses? At this race especially I think Ricky is quite wrong on this front (with the exception of the transition, pros had a distinct advantage over AG there, but it wasn’t really that hot starting at 8:20 vs 7:30), the main reasons being that he would’ve worn a swim skin and would not have had anybody to draft off/slingshot/etc in the pro field. The only people for whom that statement MIGHT be true are the uber age group swimmers. They may race a little bit faster in the pro field due to being in the pack for the swim but overall they are much more likely to blow up and have poorer race results as a consequence. Anyway, just found that tidbit interesting.

X2

James, you were a pro for a few years and I think you are better than anyone to comment on this. As a long-time age-grouper myself, I always cringe when I see age-groupers say this. Competing as an age-grouper is almost always easier. The exception is that if you swim very well. Uber age-group swimmers are often so far out in front anyway it is like riding as a pro, and in a pro race they can often swim faster, and gain a little advantage on the bike on flat courses and get toed around for a bit until they get dropped.

For the non-swimmers, the most difficult part of transition to pro is the swim. The swim is a straight up TT for the first 400 and is certainly not the fastest way to swim or race. It is great for blowing the slower swimmers off and leaving them to swim on their own. In my entire time of talking directly with age-groupers there has only been one male who I really thought could make the transition, that age-grouper at the time was Matt Hanson. If people want to do it, fine, knock yourself out, but I hate to see age-groupers. who love triathlon, transition, fail, and then become disenchanted and exit the sport they loved.

4

Ha, funny you bring it up with your background and experiences, as it was fun to follow your pathway/career…what would you say is the biggest “eye opener” going from top Ager to pro debut to be?

ETA: I’ll be honest James, Imo the one thing I learned from you just watching from “afar” is that Imo it’s fairly easy to get the pro card (maybe it was the easiest about 3-4 years ago, and with less money races, slightly harder now…but that’s not really the point), but keeping it…that’s another challenge. Essentially making it as a pro isn’t the point…it’s making it and then amping your game even more to meet those pro challenges.

5

As a mediocre swimmer who usually passes lots of folks on the bike I think having slower bikers in front of you is a huge “carrot” and slingshot help. Something that would not happen in the pro field.

6

Agree with the swim skin v wetsuits. On the other hand, the swim and bike courses were CROWDED. On the bike, trying to pass people while they pass people while staying left of yellow line slows you way down because sometimes you have to wait. Plus, very few people knew how to descend and weaved all over the already very crowded roads, so you have to slow down. On the second half of the bike, cars going the same direction mixed in with the cyclists which caused huge slowdowns. We had to wait and pass them illegally into oncoming traffic. The run did heat up toward the end. Starting earlier prevents all of this.

He still lost 8-15 minutes on the top bikers. The course might have been crowded but at least you can sling shot around people. If he had been dropped on the swim he might have been riding alone for awhile.

7

I was an AG, then pro for 4years, and now back to AG. The only part I found different was the bike ride, but not that much different, and it was mostly mental. I think for a worse swimmer (and I’m not great) it would make a bigger difference. In my AG group races, which this year have all been rolling starts, I’ve come out near the front and rode the course alone, with maybe one person, and steadily passing a half dozen or so other AG, almost identical to what happened when I was pro.

I do see the massive packs forming behind me, so if I was a worse swimmer, I’d probably get a better slingshot, but it’s not nearly as different as I thought it would be going back to AG.

Thomas is right about the all out nature of the first part of the swim and bike in the pro wave. I still do that in the swim though to try and get on faster feet to tow me around though, and since I couldn’t hang with the front pro guys on the bike I rode my own race anyway, so it’s not been any different for me.

For the most part, and sorry if I sound like an ass, I think I would’ve gone a couple minutes faster at Santa Cruz in the pro field (just on the run) because I would’ve been in a decent race with others, where as in AG, I didn’t catch or see any other guys until mile 9/10.

8

Oh yeah, I’m definitely not saying he could have ridden 8 minutes faster. My point was that slingshot-ing was not very effective at this race.

9

Personally, I always feel like I race better/faster when I start in an earlier wave verus a later wave, even though I am not a super swimmer. I’m pretty sure my fastest three 70.3 times are from first wave starts.

The slingshot pass on the bike is definitely a huge boost, but then there are all those times you get stuck behind people on hills, corners, congested sections that diminishes the advantage. Not to mention time lost running into slower people in the swim, transitions, bobbing and weaving on the run.

10

well, that 750m swim would’ve been nice in the pro field as the gap would’ve been smaller. looks like only maybe 4-5 pros biked slower than 2:15 and none of them ran as quick as you so it would have been a similar run in the pro field.

11

i think now with the rolling starts most races are implementing this is becoming a much less compelling reason to race in the pro field.

but then there are all those times you get stuck behind people on hills, corners, congested sections that diminishes the advantage. Not to mention time lost running into slower people in the swim, transitions, bobbing and weaving on the run.

i think for WOMEN this is a much more interesting discussion. men don’t like to get passed by women, so women have a much more difficult time of it on the bike.

12

Ha, funny you bring it up with your background and experiences, as it was fun to follow your pathway/career…what would you say is the biggest “eye opener” going from top Ager to pro debut to be?

ETA: I’ll be honest James, Imo the one thing I learned from you just watching from “afar” is that Imo it’s fairly easy to get the pro card (maybe it was the easiest about 3-4 years ago, and with less money races, slightly harder now…but that’s not really the point), but keeping it…that’s another challenge. Essentially making it as a pro isn’t the point…it’s making it and then amping your game even more to meet those pro challenges.

the biggest ‘‘eye opener’’ to me was that there’s a fuckload of really fast people out there.

i say that not as if it’s some huge surprise (although it kind of was, we all exist in our own little bubble in many ways), but more as of a shift in expectations. before racing my first pro race, i EXPECTED to catch people on the bike. those that i didn’t catch on the bike i EXPECTED to catch on the run. that was what i was used to in all of my racing. simply put, that shit don’t fly anymore in the pro field. the only people i caught on the bike were the ones that got blown up from the swim + first hour. the only ones i caught on the run were the ones that got blown up from the swim + bike. it was EMOTIONALLY more difficult to deal with, in some ways. physically i was as fit as ever and racing pretty quick, but my head game wasn’t really ready for that.

13

Yeah, mostly I’m saying is that it’s not as different for front pack age groupers in a rolling start as some might think.

14

Absolutely. I’ve loved the few rolling start races I’ve done.

15

Everyone would be faster if …

16

FOP swimmer (swam 25:xx) and I think I would have been slower on this course if I had been racing pro. But I should note, if I was pro, I would have never qualified to get to this race. I do think that it is course dependent and race dependent on whether you would be faster as a pro or AG’er.

I have no experience racing pro but everything I’ve seen and heard from my coach, you have to ride with the group. I would have exited the swim and had a group to ride with. I would have done everything in my power to stay with the group which would have led to me over biking. My run would have been shot by the time I got to t2 on this course. I would have run 10-15 min slower if not more.

Take Raleigh 70.3 as example where I think I would have been faster in the pro field. Not nearly as deep of a field at this race. I would have exited the swim near the front and rode with the chase group which I think would have been doable without completely killing my run. I would have never been able to keep up with Yoder on the bike or it would have been pure suicide.

17

as everyone mention, if age grouper is a strong swimmer, he will gain advantage to race in a pro field.

but if your swimming isnt at a pro level…you will be faster in about any age group race vs a more clean and empty road of the pro field.

18

I was a division I college swimmer and am a decent AG triathlete.

If I trained for it… I bet I could:

  1. Swim with the top 20 in a ITU event.
  2. Occasionally avoid getting dropped (more than twice) on the bike.
  3. Then run a 37 minute 10 k and pretend I was just “jogging it in.”

I might not look completely ridiculous.

The problem is I could never get into the race in the first place.

19

One thing that I think people aren’t noticing and I have no clue how old you are, or your triathlon status is currently, but the US is allowing more DL elite pathways then ever before.

But atleast for draft legal pathways, US has opened it up to allow much more openness to getting into itu races. ITU pathway athletes are allowed a 1 year “provisional” license to do itu and see what they can do.

And I think a lot of it is because they figure if you are 20 years old, want to travel to far away places to do an itu race and try your hand at it and maybe get your brains beat up, but still want to give it a shot…let’s see if we can increase the talent pool…so go. Give it a go

20

No one has mentioned the 900 lbs gorilla in the room - money!

Really - there is almost no way to make any decent money, at those lower tier Pro levels - prize money or actual sponsor money. Turning Pro or getting the Pro card is “easy”, but making it a true profession, VERY difficult.

If there is some talent and possibilities there, then a clear game-plan needs to be worked out for at least a few years to see you through until you,* may* be able to actually start to earn some decent* income from the sport.

  • There are really only a handful of A-List pros that are making a good living from the sport of triathlon directly from their racing performance. The B-List are barely making ends meet, the C-list are doing it at a loss.