First off, let me say hi. I am a 24 year old motocross racer from Europe.
By now most of you are probably wondering what on earth I am doing on a triathlon forum but I will explain.
A little over 2 weeks ago I broke my right humerus in a freak motocross accident when someone crashed right in front of me and I had nowhere to go.
For the past year I had been training very hard in order to make this a great season.
Although triathlon and motocross could not be more different types of discipline, I suspect the way of training is actually very much alike. (Aside of the training volume which is obviously waaaaay higher for you guys and that’s why I have great respect for what you do.)
Anyway let me start off by saying I ultimately train for 2 x 15-20 minute races every weekend. These races are done at 85%-99% of Max HR from start to finish. It is incredibly brutal.
So for months I have been building an aerobic base and followed that up with zone 3-4-5 work as the season approached… Until the crash of course.
So now I am looking at probably the first 4 weeks I will not have trained in probably 18 months where I trained 3-5 times per week.
The preferred cross-training method for motocross is cycling so that is pretty much all I have ever done. I know the ins and outs of training that way and really enjoy it.
However, with this recent injury I am looking at starting to swim. I figure it is kind of a “kill two birds with one stone” exercise. I would be rehabilitating my arm and making it stronger again, all the while getting my aerobic training in.
The thing is: I have never swum in the form of “training” so I know next to nothing about it. I am particularly interested in the difference in HR and volume of swimming vs cyclng.
After reading up on the internet I have found out that your HR is approximately 10-15 BPM lower so I should take all of my zones and take 15 BPM off.
But now onto my main question:
What about volume? I’ve found nothing on the volume of swim-training in comparison to cycling.
My aerobic base training consists of 60-75 minutes of zone 2 training (with some zone 3 work). This probably sounds laughable to you but keep in mind I train for 15 minute races.
So how long should I swim in order to get the same result as a 60-75 minute cycle ride?
My aerobic conditioning training usually consists of 3x8 minutes of zone 3-4 with 3-minute rest periods in zone 2
My interval training is usually 5x2 minutes all-out with 3 minute rest periods.
Again: How should I transform this to swimming?
And lastly: How much fitness loss am I realistically looking at after a month of doing nothing? (Aside from some zone 1 stationary bike).
Second, the volume you do is proportional to your ability and time available. If you already know how to swim well then you will be able to jump into the pool and bang out and hour 3 to 5 times a week.
If you are a poor swimmer then maybe 30 to 45 minutes 3 to 5 times a week. Obviously more would be better if you don’t hurt your shoulders in the process then have to stop for a week to recover.
If you need some ideas of swim workouts there are monthly threads going on here with a bunch of them. Do something that will take you 45 to 60 min to start and see how it goes. Please do not just swim for an hour straight (unless of course you enjoy doing that). It will get you good at going slow which I suppose may or may not be your goal.
I am confused though. Why would I not use my HR for swimming?
Also, maybe I should have included this in my original post: It is not my intention to become “better” at swimming. The sole purpose of it is rebuilding my fitness and in the meantime strengthening my arm.
Time available per session is approximately 2 hours.
You become a better swimmer by swimming shorter intervals (1 to 5 minutes). Watching a big clock on the wall is very easy and repeatable.
Your HR will not come up in that short amount of time to be an effective indicator of intensity. Also, it’s difficult to check it while swimming, you would have to stop and take a quick glance every so often. Swim training is not like running or cycling where you have long bouts of steady state activity. With those it’s easy to get your HR to come up and settle in to your desired intensity. Swimming is normally done quicker and shorter intervals which makes HR difficult to use as an indicator of intensity.
Now if all you want to do is swim for strengthening then do what pleases you and doesn’t hurt your shoulders, but why not kill two birds with one stone and learn to swim correctly?
I see where you are coming from about the swimming to rebuild fitness however I don’t think you will get the fitness you desire from swimming. 2 hours in the pool is a very long time for non-swimmers, I think you would get bored much before that.
Although I would still like to know how steady state swimming relates to steady state cycling. For example I know when doing aerobic base training as running your HR should be approx 10 BPM higher than it is with cycling, while the duration of the run would be much shorter to get the same result. I know swimming HR should be lower than both swmming and running but I have no idea about duration!
Also, boredom is a non-issue for me, I am extremely motivated. I have spent many hours on a stationary bike when the roads here are frozen and as slick as an ice hockey rink.
Swimming is different than running and biking. Firstly your legs are not the prime movers. Second, the medium is about 800 times denser so form and techniques afre much more important in swimming.
I come from a biking background and I have found that my duration, by and large limited by a need to keep my shoulders injury free. If I’m in the pool 4-5 times a week then nt duration needs to be capped at an hour or so–although, I can get a great wo in 45 minutes or so. I frequently will ride for 5+ hours or run for 90-120 minutes so my duration is much less swimming. Of course, real swimmers think nothing of 4 hours a day in the pool…
I have found for long-course triathlon such as an IM that my HR for the swim and bike are pretty similar: around 150-152 bpm for me, while my run is around 160 bpm…
That said, most of my swim training is interval work of 40-300 seconds in duration and my intensity is quite a bit higher than I would ever swim in an IM…
During the summer I do a weekly OW swim with a group of folks–typically 4000-5000 yards and I will swim with that greoup areound 148-150bpm as I am slightly better than slowest swimmers in our group…
-HR is lower swimming generally because the water is colder. If you get in a hot pool/lake and swim you can get the HR up. However, as pointed out, no one really thinks much about HR in swimming.
-Most competitive swimming is short in duration–outside of the 1500 m the longest pro races are less than 5 minutes. You can get very good aerobic training, but the way this is usually done is different than cycling/running. Human beings are not good swimmers, and swimming uses upper body muscles so you will tire quickly even at low efforts. This is different than cycling/running.
-That said, the best way to get in aerobic training is doing intervals. So for example you swim 100 meters in 1:45 starting at 00:00, which brings you in at 01:45. Then you might leave again at 02:00, and repeat. So this would be 10 x 100 @ 2:00 avg 1:45. Lots of examples in the swim thread every month.
-If your primary goal is maintaining cycle fitness, I’d focus on kick sets. Get some fins and do something like the set above. I have taken months off of cycling and gotten all my fitness back in 6-8 weeks simply by focusing on swimming and kicking.
Good luck.
ETA: Because you are a new swimmer, the kicking will allow you to build volume more quickly. I think given your injury and limited background I would do 50/50 swimming/kicking.
I really never thought swimming would require a different way of training than cycling/running but I guess it does.
Since you all say it is really difficult to get your heart rate up while swimming I am a little worried that I won’t be able to do the really high intensity workouts with swimming.
Because like I said, motocross is pretty much wide open (85-99 max HR for 15-20 minutes), so obviously, after I come back to the aerobic level I was at pre-injury, I will need to restart doing heavy anaerobic intervals, and perhaps that’s just not a good idea to do with swimming? Even though swmming makes the most sense because I want to train using the most ‘low-impact’ method possible since motocross itself is so taxing on the body.
You’ve got some generally good information in previous posts.
We have something in common. I spent 7 years doing MX (in the stone age ). And used mostly running for my aerobic training. Later I added cycling. Then a few racing buddies decided to try triathlons and so did I. I couldn’t swim very well. It turns out that my MX skills were only very average (I’m still disappointed even after a million years). But, my aerobic endurance made me a decent runner (sub 34 10k,) and triathlete (after learning to swim).
To your questions. Good aerobic fitness does crossover and help your motocross. Any of the sports are good - XC skiing, rowing, etc. included. But, as you pointed out your racing is at least somewhat anaerobic. So, you need to train your system for that, as well. Also note that the type of movements in MX are more “isometric” in nature and the triathlon sports are not. So, some of your best training will (when you’re ready) be to actually ride you motorcycle. The additional benefit is you’ll get to work on the skill side of that sport, as well as sport specific anaerobic isometric training.
Just to remind you, Motocross (and I do still love that sport!) is a high skill sport requiring spontaneous reactions that require both aerobic and anaerobic fitness. The good news is the aerobic fitness can be trained by triathlon sports. But realistically, the anaerobic side of MX is best trained on the motorcycle.
I wish you well. For me the lessons and memories from racing affect my life - in a positive way each and every day. May they do the same to you.
I’m so happy to find someone with some knowledge on training who also understands what it’s like to race motocross. No offense to anyone but sometimes it feels like people don’t appreciate how rediculously hard that sport is mentally and physically. I would ask some well trained athlete if he could give me some tips and he would say “just go running once or twice a week”…Like he wanted to say, why on earth would you work out for motocross?
I fould two things very interesting in your post. The first being that motocross is mostly “isometric”. I’ve never really thought about that but I guess it’s true.
And the funny thing is, none of motocross’ biggest trainers (like Aldon Baker) have I ever seen doing isometric exercises off the bike. It’s always some sort of circuit training with a lot of emphasis on stability and core strength.
Secondly, you are the second person to tell me that anaerobic training is best done on the bike. The guy at the hospital where I do my VO2max testing told me exactly the same thing, but didn’t explain why and I was hoping you could. I understand the ‘skills training’ part of it. Obviously it would be best of I could ride nearly everyday and I could do both my aerobic, anaerobic and max effort training all on the bike, but sadly I can only ride twice a week. One of those two days is race day, so realistically I can only do what I want on the bike once per week, which is obviously not a lot to make significant anaerobic gains.
So why is it preferable to do your anaerobic training ‘sport-specific’? Is there some sort of benefit that comes from using the specific form of exercise of your sport combined with the high intensity of anaerobic training? Also, since I can only ‘train’ on my bike once a week, what would you suggest I do to best replicate anaerobic training on the bike? Mountainbiking? Or perhaps rowing?
Generally speaking, aerobic training represents a systemic benefit and can be supported through non specific cross training. Anaerobic training represents a focused engagement of particular systems that are mostly sport / action specific.
The anaerobic response you develop swimming will have greatly reduced, if any, carry over to MX because of the different systems involved and your bodies response to the environment. Swimming is a combination of muscle movement against fixed resistance (water) and internal rotation, while MX is a fluctuating conflict between the bodies biomechanical system and inconsistent external forces (shifting vector of gravity, torsion, etc.). Hence why you need sport specificity in the anaerobic component.
On the aerobic swimming side of things, you’ll be surprised at how little your non-swimming fitness carries over into the pool. While it’s harder to get your heart rate up as a swimmer, since you’re relatively new to it, I don’t think that’s an issue you’ll run into as you ask your muscles to react to an entirely new kind of tension. If you’re overly concerned about threshold / aerobic paces though, considering looking at Swim Smooth’s CSS system (400m + 200m time trial, worked through a formula to give you 100m pace to train at the threshold level). If you take their CSS and add a few seconds per hundred and do CSS sets, you’ll be maintaining a fairly high aerobic state of training sessions.
Although I have to ask again: Since my time on the bike is very limited, what would be the next best sport to use for anaerobic training? I’m guessing mountainbiking? I have some pretty challenging trails nearby my house that I have used for anaerobic intervals before. Plus I enjoy cycling. The reason I want to start swimming is because it is simply the least taxing (for joints/muscles) sport I can do compared to racing motocross. Plus I have used swimming before as plain recovery workouts after a race and found them to be much more effective than cycling, probably because of the increased bloodflow from so many more muscle groups that get used compared to cycling?
You have received some good advise, especially this >>>> -If your primary goal is maintaining cycle fitness, I’d focus on kick sets. Get some fins and do something like the set above. I have taken months off of cycling and gotten all my fitness back in 6-8 weeks simply by focusing on swimming and kicking.
Generally speaking, aerobic training represents a systemic benefit and can be supported through non specific cross training. Anaerobic training represents a focused engagement of particular systems that are mostly sport / action specific.
The anaerobic response you develop swimming will have greatly reduced, if any, carry over to MX because of the different systems involved and your bodies response to the environment. Swimming is a combination of muscle movement against fixed resistance (water) and internal rotation, while MX is a fluctuating conflict between the bodies biomechanical system and inconsistent external forces (shifting vector of gravity, torsion, etc.). Hence why you need sport specificity in the anaerobic component.
On the aerobic swimming side of things, you’ll be surprised at how little your non-swimming fitness carries over into the pool. While it’s harder to get your heart rate up as a swimmer, since you’re relatively new to it, I don’t think that’s an issue you’ll run into as you ask your muscles to react to an entirely new kind of tension. If you’re overly concerned about threshold / aerobic paces though, considering looking at Swim Smooth’s CSS system (400m + 200m time trial, worked through a formula to give you 100m pace to train at the threshold level). If you take their CSS and add a few seconds per hundred and do CSS sets, you’ll be maintaining a fairly high aerobic state of training sessions.
Good luck!
This is awesome.
Mountain biking is an interesting idea, and, overall I can’t think of a better solution. But, it depends on the type of mountain biking. For the isometric/skill stuff you’d need lots of high speed downhill. Climbing is great, but, it will not be isometric (much). One could argue that a combination of climbing and serious downhill would be best. Assuming of course you don’t crash your brains out! Been there, done that.
I could go on and on about this stuff. But keep in mind that your metric needs to be -when you finish your final moto - were you able to go maximum effort all the way to the finish? Or, did some kind of fitness limit your application of skills. Nothing wrong with being more “fit” than you have to, but, that won’t translate into going faster on the track. I learned that the hard way. I was plenty fit; but, not talented enough to go beyond my average skills.
). And used mostly running for my aerobic training. Later I added cycling. Then a few racing buddies decided to try triathlons and so did I. I couldn’t swim very well. It turns out that my MX skills were only very average (I’m still disappointed even after a million years). But, my aerobic endurance made me a decent runner (sub 34 10k,) and triathlete (after learning to swim).
).
Been there, done that.