Ive been reading info on Mark Allens websight about heart rate training. Has anyone followed his training plan. Is it true that if you train at a low (Zone 3) heart rate that you will eventually be able to go faster at the same heart rate. He states that when he first started using a heart rate monitor that he could only run 8:15 pace at 155bpm. But after a year of running at that heartrate he could run much faster at the same heart rate. Is this how it works. I thought if you wanted to be faster you had to train fast.
Yes…and no. You are going to get heaps of ‘expert’ opinion about this. Best thing you can do is to hop down to your nearest library and find a a book on Exercise Physiology. Either that or do some internet searching on oxygen uptake.
In general three things matter:
Maximum oxygen uptake aka VO2max (or peak) bound by genetics but can be substantially improved if untrained
Lactate threshold, anaerobic threshold, ventilatory threshold, OBLA, MLaSS (They are different, some not really real, but often used interchangeably to mean the same thing!
Movement efficiency and economy
An issue I had a few years back was I spent 4-5 months running 10-12 hours a week without ever letting my H/R get above 68% of HRM. I heard doing this will help build your aerobic base and it certainly did help. However in the fall when I tried to start running at my aerobic threshold and higher I found that I had trouble raising my HR that high. It seemed my muscles and body had kind of forgotten how to push that hard. After working on these faster workout for a month or so I was again able to hit close to my max HR.
Good book - Total Heart Rate Training by Joe Friel.
As *aerobic *system develops, the heart becomes stronger and more efficient, thus, producing more ‘work’ for same effort (bpm).
Upon this aerobic base comes the development of muscular endurance, strength, and threshold. All of which require unique aspects of training (intervals, etc.).
Friel explains this very well.
Ive been reading info on Mark Allens websight about heart rate training. Has anyone followed his training plan. Is it true that if you train at a low (Zone 3) heart rate that you will eventually be able to go faster at the same heart rate. He states that when he first started using a heart rate monitor that he could only run 8:15 pace at 155bpm. But after a year of running at that heartrate he could run much faster at the same heart rate. Is this how it works. I thought if you wanted to be faster you had to train fast.
My experience:
This winter I signed up for a testing program which included a lactate test which set my heart rate zones for training. I followed the plan and did a lot of Zone 2 training with 1-2 sessions of Z4 or 5 a week (short and intense sessions). In a nut shell the results was that I went from running a 5:30 min/km easy pace at the start to a 4:20 min/km easy pace 4 months later. Basically 85% Z2 work and the rest speed/hill/interval /tempo etc…
For me the biggest advantage was being able to recover from the sessions much better and I lacked that feeling of tired. This allowed me to train a lot more than I normally did.
I was retested 4 months later and my Zones look a lot different. You can’t just stick to one heart rate over the long haul as you body adapts and will plateau.
I was able last year to squeeze out a sub 40 min 10K with a run that killed me. Now a Sub 40 min 10K is still tough, but not nearly as hard.
But I think you want to train at Z2 (full fat burning aerobic zone) and not so much Zone3 (which is a mix of carb / fat buring zone).
Ian - Jackpot!
Depending on the training zone model you adhere to (i.e. 1-5, 1-7, 1-11), the common ground between them all, is the two key anchor points: Lactate Threshold 1/LT1/aerobic threshold/AeT, and LT2/anaerobic threshold/AnT.
Just as the name suggests LT1/AeT utilizes oxygen to a great extent and fuels primarily from fat. Therefore to improve your body’s capacity to utilize oxygen and burn fat you need to train your body to do so.
In a 5 zone model, Z3 is often dubbed the ‘junk zone’, as Ian suggested it’s a mix bag of FAT and CHO. This is why so many athletes get frustrated that their body weight does not change. By nature our bodies want to train at a Zone 3 effort, any slower and it feels like we’re doing nothing, any faster and it hurts, it sucks, we get stitches in our side so we revert back to Z3 effort.
If you want to get faster, train slow 85% of the time (Z2 or less).
When the time comes to improve your upper end (anaerobic capacity), tempo runs in Z4 and intervals in Z5 will do the trick… don’t forget hill if you’re training for an significant elevation gain, as this will help develop strength in your posterior chain.
On another note 220-age DOES NOT WORK!
Find a qualified exercise physiologist and have a graded exercise completed that measures at least HR response and blood lactate. A direct VO2max test is not necessary!
Kinesio Sport Lab
Halifax, NS
In my experience I was able to decrease my times by about 20% in 4 months at the same heart rate. That was also while increasing the distance run 50%. I followed the BarryP plan of 3 short recovery runs, 2 mid-length (done at a higher heartrate/intensity) and 1 long run. At first it was brutal running so slow but at the end I’d knock out 7 or 8 miles at a decent tempo (for me) and feel like I could run all day. In fact my wife called me once about 2.5 miles in and asked where I was (she was at work) and when I told her where and that I was running she was shocked because I wasn’t out of breath. That’s when I knew things were working.
Good luck.
MAO works for me. I’m in my 5th year with Mark, Louis and the rest of the crew. It takes the guesswork out of the training program. All my questions were answered promptly.
Good luck.
Josh
same experience here, spend my “long” runs in z2 and have to REALLY focus on staying in Z2. As other posters have pointed out at times it just doenst feel like I’m doing much…on the other hand once I hit the 2 hour mark that perception changes. I mix that with one high intensity run per week, and have been doing this for the past 6 months. My observation has not been only gains in speed in Z2, but also speed/duration in Z3. I’m also seeing this change on the bike as well.
One point I think is very good, and something I have not done, is actually testing thresholds along the way. While I do let myself run at what would have previously been considered low z3 (now I’m assuming it’s my Z2) for the low runs having some testing to back it up would be valuable.
At the end of the day though I’d just say dont become a slave to HR all the time. Some days I feel like it really takes away from the enjoyment of a run. YMMV
In the running world there is a very well respected coach named HADD. He put out a little pamphlet and unfortunately died in a motorcycle accident before he could actually write a book. You can find his article here: http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf
Basically the same notion, and I had a TON of success with this method, but it takes time. I went from running a 1:24 HM to running a 1:09 HM in about 2 years (with an intermediary 1:18), and my HRave was the same in both those races, and both times were on the same course, under similar weather conditions. With his method you really have to track quite a bit of data and look for plateaus under the same stressors before you add anything else. Also, he has some performance checkers in his plan that somewhat act like speed sessions that keep you relatively sharp.
If it’s as similar to HADD as is sounds, I would endorse that method if you want to take your time, and really try to max out your potential over the course of a couple of years. I’m still amazed that I ran that 1:09.
Timely thread as I justed tested for VO2 for the first time in my life today. I was told that my hr for Aet should be 96bpm. She told me she could tell I was doing all my long runs way too high due to the difference between AeT and AT. I just can’t imagine doing LSD runs ~100bpm. How about the bike? Riding at that pace seems like junk miles. I didn’t ask about swimming and it’s hard to imagine keeping hr there for long swim days.
Ian - Jackpot!
Depending on the training zone model you adhere to (i.e. 1-5, 1-7, 1-11), the common ground between them all, is the two key anchor points: Lactate Threshold 1/LT1/aerobic threshold/AeT, and LT2/anaerobic threshold/AnT.
Just as the name suggests LT1/AeT utilizes oxygen to a great extent and fuels primarily from fat. Therefore to improve your body’s capacity to utilize oxygen and burn fat you need to train your body to do so.
In a 5 zone model, Z3 is often dubbed the ‘junk zone’, as Ian suggested it’s a mix bag of FAT and CHO. This is why so many athletes get frustrated that their body weight does not change. By nature our bodies want to train at a Zone 3 effort, any slower and it feels like we’re doing nothing, any faster and it hurts, it sucks, we get stitches in our side so we revert back to Z3 effort.
If you want to get faster, train slow 85% of the time (Z2 or less).
When the time comes to improve your upper end (anaerobic capacity), tempo runs in Z4 and intervals in Z5 will do the trick… don’t forget hill if you’re training for an significant elevation gain, as this will help develop strength in your posterior chain.
On another note 220-age DOES NOT WORK!
Find a qualified exercise physiologist and have a graded exercise completed that measures at least HR response and blood lactate. A direct VO2max test is not necessary!
Kinesio Sport Lab
Halifax, NS
so now your zone will be diet based, thus it makes sense to run a low carb Diet and try to stay in Z3
Ive been reading info on Mark Allens websight about heart rate training. Has anyone followed his training plan. Is it true that if you train at a low (Zone 3) heart rate that you will eventually be able to go faster at the same heart rate. He states that when he first started using a heart rate monitor that he could only run 8:15 pace at 155bpm. But after a year of running at that heartrate he could run much faster at the same heart rate. Is this how it works. I thought if you wanted to be faster you had to train fast.
I highly recommend John L Parker’s “Heart Rate Training for Compleat(sic) Idiots” Informative, Clear, and Funny.
I went from a 1:52 HM to a 1:35 using his plan, and I STILL PR, on average, about every other to every third race I enter… There is virtually no limit to how well you can train your aerobic capacity.
Does this apply to the bike as well as the run? I’ve seen several threads that say to ride hard as much as you can on the bike; that seems to go against this. Also, wouldn’t a lot of hard riding on the bike violate the “train slow 85% of the time” rule? I don’t imagine the heart distinguishes between the two disciplines, so my initial thought is to keep bike and run under aerobic threshhold for almost all of my time while I’m building my aerobic base.
My half mary PR is 1:43, and I’m tempted to try this methodology for the next four months (I’m running the Disneyland half in September) and see what happens. I want to continue to bike during that time, but I don’t want to pound it on the bike too much if it will be counterproductive.
Ian - Jackpot!
Depending on the training zone model you adhere to (i.e. 1-5, 1-7, 1-11), the common ground between them all, is the two key anchor points: Lactate Threshold 1/LT1/aerobic threshold/AeT, and LT2/anaerobic threshold/AnT.
Just as the name suggests LT1/AeT utilizes oxygen to a great extent and fuels primarily from fat. Therefore to improve your body’s capacity to utilize oxygen and burn fat you need to train your body to do so.
In a 5 zone model, Z3 is often dubbed the ‘junk zone’, as Ian suggested it’s a mix bag of FAT and CHO. This is why so many athletes get frustrated that their body weight does not change. By nature our bodies want to train at a Zone 3 effort, any slower and it feels like we’re doing nothing, any faster and it hurts, it sucks, we get stitches in our side so we revert back to Z3 effort.
If you want to get faster, train slow 85% of the time (Z2 or less).
When the time comes to improve your upper end (anaerobic capacity), tempo runs in Z4 and intervals in Z5 will do the trick… don’t forget hill if you’re training for an significant elevation gain, as this will help develop strength in your posterior chain.
On another note 220-age DOES NOT WORK!
Find a qualified exercise physiologist and have a graded exercise completed that measures at least HR response and blood lactate. A direct VO2max test is not necessary!
Kinesio Sport Lab
Halifax, NS
You are correct!
Each discipline, be it cycling, running, swimming, xc skiing, etc. will have individual HR training zones. For example, an accomplished runner with little to none cycling-specific fitness is likely to push far less watts on a bike than a seasoned cyclist. Therefore, a Z2 effort while running, could very well be a Z3 effort on the bike. Just because you’re staying within a specified HR zone, your body might actually be working harder to achieve that specific HR response (which can be measured via blood lactate).
This is why your Garmin or Polar wrist unit allows you to enter different HR training zones for each discipline.
Thanks for the information. It sounds like I need to determine my zones for each discipline instead of just using my run zones for everything.
You are correct!
Each discipline, be it cycling, running, swimming, xc skiing, etc. will have individual HR training zones. For example, an accomplished runner with little to none cycling-specific fitness is likely to push far less watts on a bike than a seasoned cyclist. Therefore, a Z2 effort while running, could very well be a Z3 effort on the bike. Just because you’re staying within a specified HR zone, your body might actually be working harder to achieve that specific HR response (which can be measured via blood lactate).
This is why your Garmin or Polar wrist unit allows you to enter different HR training zones for each discipline.
Remember something else here. When Mark Allen went to the Maffetone method he was alreaady wicked fast. He needed to get speed for distance more efficeintly but had the speed.
Good thread. What volumes are we talking about here if you were to stay primarily in zone 2 for the run?
I fortunately/unfortunately work 60 hours/week. So, when I try to juggle S-B-R for my first IM, I can’t put in 10+ hours on the run alone. In this case, should intensity be increased (assuming I can maintain consistent training and no injuries)? I’m not trying to hijack the thread, just trying to understand volume vs intensity.
Thanks!
-Tropic
For many due to bike not being weight bearing and being a runner, effort for me on the bike is 12-15 beats less than running. Second, Lyliard had LSD as Long “Steady” run not Long slow run. His guys were still knocking out good times