there still seems to be significant debate and different implementations amongst those who might be expected to know best.
general principle seems to be higher hands is more comfortable/relaxed whereas flatter gives better control. best aero choice is very individual. is that a reasonable summary?
is it generally true that higher hands is more comfortable/relaxed?
within moderate angles, is there a meaningful handling difference?
without the ability to test meaningfully, is there reason to choose moderate angle vs flatter for aero benefits?
any other wisdom to share?
what sort of angle is the best bet - 5, 10, 15, 20…
My n=1. Went from flat to 10deg. A lot more comfortable (no longer fighting not to slide forward on the saddle, and the accompanying delt fatigue). Handling got more squirrely. Not a huge concern, but i definitely notice how it’s harder to hold a straight line.
Inclined is a big comfort improvement for me. I always assumed I was giving up aero benefits. There is not a big difference in control for me if anything I think it improves with my hands higher as I’m not sliding forward and getting the center of gravity even further out.
Hands matter and matter a lot. I’m talking about wrist angle and how you hold the bars which is a function of overall extension shape as well as angle. A huge amount the variability in aero testing seems to come down to the ‘shape’ your hand present to the wind.
Tony Martin is a good example of a flat bar rider. He likes to angle is hands down and this hand position seems very favorable for flat extensions. Many people find this position uncomfortable and therefore try and position the extensions the same way but hold them differently. Its these people who need to consider tilted extensions Mental factor’ prompts Tony Martin’s return to old TT position ahead of World Champs | Cycling Weekly
Primoz Roglic has a hand position that is more favourable for tilting. Basically he just closes his fists without angling his wrists. This presents his hands as clubs to the wind and aerodynamically the goal of high hands is to get these clubs directly in front of a persons face. If you are Tony Martin kind of guy you don’t have clubs in the first place so you solve the problem differently. Primoz Roglic besluit thuisronde in stijl | Wieler Revue
There is a bit of a circular loop involved here in that extension shape does also dictate hand position so a person may change their preferred hand position given different extensions. However I would always start with determine what a riders preferred wrist angle is and work backwards from there. Personally I really struggle with the Tony Martin style position due to poor strength/flexibilty in my wrists so its just isn’t a good option but that is personal. I suspect the Tony Martin style wrist is actually aerodynamically superior if you can hold it but its just not a viable position for a lot of riders.
Hands matter and matter a lot. I’m talking about wrist angle and how you hold the bars which is a function of overall extension shape as well as angle. A huge amount the variability in aero testing seems to come down to the ‘shape’ your hand present to the wind.
I do not beleive that to be true. Do you have data to share?
My n=1 racing this summer with flat extensions and 15 degrees extensions is that I could not notice a difference.
I would postulate elbow width makes a larger difference than hand position.
To the OP, wrt hand position go with what makes you most comfortable, that is what will make you fastest overall.
I went from flat to angled and believe it is an improvement.
Did not make any reproducable tests, but I think there are test results with people who get better aerodynamics.
More important is that it easier for me to sink the head between my shoulders. I can reproduce that when I’m sitting at a desk: during the angling of the underarms upwardly, my head falls more between the shoulders. Maybe you would expect the opposite, but it seems that the muscles and tendons are structured like that.
You couldn’t notice a difference in what? There is also a need to distinguish extension shape from extension angle. There is a real difference between a totally straight extension that is tilted to 15 degrees and a extension which has a 15 degree ski upward bend at the end.
If all you are doing is tilting a totally straight extension/bending your elbow you are doing high hands differently than how most people do it. The shape of flat extensions is to really get you flat including the wrist angle. I can’t see an advantage of throwing a 15 degree tilt on this system vs moving to an ski bend shaped extension. Once you are on a ski shape then you have club hands and can think about tilting the bars.
Hands matter and matter a lot. I’m talking about wrist angle and how you hold the bars which is a function of overall extension shape as well as angle. A huge amount the variability in aero testing seems to come down to the ‘shape’ your hand present to the wind.
I do not beleive that to be true. Do you have data to share?
My n=1 racing this summer with flat extensions and 15 degrees extensions is that I could not notice a difference.
I would postulate elbow width makes a larger difference than hand position…
All elements of position are interdependent and their influences on both aerodynamics and ergonomics cannot be usefully discussed in isolation. Furthermore, the relative impact of “hands” versus “arms” entirely depends on what you’re changing about them and by how much. If you can’t quantify them, there’s not much point trying to rank them.
Sit in your chair at home and mess with holding your position in front of yourself. Turtle the head, etc… Now, focus on what it feels like in your neck/shoulders when you widen or narrow your arms/elbows. The elbow width thing matters, but the whole system matters…as in if you go narrow there you might have just popped your head up and lost ground instead of gaining it.
I appreciate the contributors in this topic talking about how tilt and club hands versus cocked wrist hands can matter. That’s a specific data point on my list for Notio runs soon. My bars aren’t really made to try both, so I may have to just pucker my butt for one of the instances and not grip the bar ends for that run. To that point, without front-on photos (or a test also) you can’t really even know if you’re in the ballpark for having hands in front of your face. I bet a lot of folks think that, but the front-on view…it’s probably pretty far off.
I went from straight so ski bends. The extensions are not tilted. I stayed UCI legal tilting the pads 15 degrees and having a 10cm drop from tips to pads.
I look forward to reports of people trying different things and measuring impacts on the road. I’ve never seen conlusive reports of hands having a very significant impact on the road. Not in the context of half decent comfortable positions to start with.
Of course you have the superman, the egg and everything in between, which just proves the system is responsible for the final result, but I still believe that hands are not all that relevant when it comes down to arm angles. Just keep them as close together a possible, place them in a way that presents a relatively smooth profile to the wind and call it a day. Everything else will be marginal in my uninformed opinion.
Regarding interrelations of positional changes that goes without saying. What I was saying is that if you narrow your elbows and nothing else changes, you’ll be faster. There’s other things we know for sure, such as if you can properly drop your head lower (no tail gap increase) without changing anything else, you’ll be faster. Narrower stance witdth, same thing. Again the caveat is to keep everything else the same. Doesn’t mean you will be able to do that, bit if you can, you’ll be faster.
Any patterns or correlations you find for those that benefit from it? I’ve read somewhere in this forum that avg speed is a big factor? As in at 30 mph you get a bigger benefit from “pushing” the air around your face then at 23 mph (or whatever)
Handling got more squirrely. Not a huge concern, but i definitely notice how it’s harder to hold a straight line.
I’m a good bike handler and I did not like this. I put my bars much closer to flat again.
Yeah this really freaked me out, I had anxiety about it and have to be flat outside.
Yes I found it more squirrely myself but it really taught me to relax more. I found it felt like I was getting a degree or two warmer without the airflow hitting my face and chest area as much as a level bar position. I don’t have temperature data but I did sweat more when it was hands up. Less stable, but my regular rides were slightly faster by a fraction. I will play with that a bit more in the future. I’ve had like 5 bike positions since spring so it’s in the works. I would be nice if wind tunnel testing wasn’t so $$.
In all the testing I’ve done in the wind tunnel high hands is slower for >80% of all people.
How high is considered high? Does this split apply to people at just 5-10deg?
And what do you think about hands together vs separate? Sam and Jan ride with their hands one over the other, which makes the leading hand a little bigger, but hides the other. Could even put palms together prayer-style.
Any patterns or correlations you find for those that benefit from it? I’ve read somewhere in this forum that avg speed is a big factor? As in at 30 mph you get a bigger benefit from “pushing” the air around your face then at 23 mph (or whatever)
It does seem to be better for faster riders. Unfortunately most triathletes, pros included, don’t seem to be fast enough.
It also seems to work better at extremely low yaw angles.
How much slower is slower for the 80%? As soon as I tilted my hands upward my comfort was through the roof. I’m positive my sustainability of holding aero is much better with higher hands. So at what cost is my slower position vs the comfort?
In all the testing I’ve done in the wind tunnel high hands is slower for >80% of all people.
How high is considered high? Does this split apply to people at just 5-10deg?
And what do you think about hands together vs separate? Sam and Jan ride with their hands one over the other, which makes the leading hand a little bigger, but hides the other. Could even put palms together prayer-style.
Hand position is specific. I’ve tested several, can’t say there was a trend, at least not that I can remember.
I was testing this AG female one time. Redid the previous run and the numbers were nearly a .010 increase in CdA. Turns out she changed her hand position.
My advice is use the hand position that is most comfy and safest. Doesn’t matter how aero you are if you can’t stay upright over rough pavement, or when you hit potholes.