Aero Sensors Stalling?

I think devices will end up costing more than $300, especially since we might need more sensors to get good yaw data. You also do have a group of audience, who can afford tunnel time (from a money perspective), but can’t afford tunnel time from a time / logistic standpoint.

But what’s the target market? Triathletes and time trial specialists, who have already bought a power meter, and are looking for the next shiny thing? That’s a very small market.

It’s cost. You’ve got folks as a target audience who are interested in the aero, but can’t afford tunnel time.

Then you turn around and want to charge $300+ for a device requiring a $400+ power meter AND a new head unit because they only work with a Garmin. So another $200+.

I’ve been testing with Aerotune for a little while (https://www.aerotune.com/) and it’s super easy to use with a Garmin Computer and phone in your pocket and the feedback given runs after runs on the Garmin is super great to have ! Would love to use both apps on the same day and see how they compare !

This is not a good procedure. And they don’t say anything about how they deal with wind; probably they ignore it.

"You will need a power meter, a GPS device and a flat test track to measure your aerodynamics. If you also use a speed sensor, the measurement accuracy increases.

1 Acceleration: You speed up to your planned power performance (watts).
2 Start Recording: Start your stop watch, GPS device etc.
3 Outbound Trip: Ride with constant power and seating position for 1 kilometer in one direction.
4 End of Outbound Trip: Remember the position, it will be the starting point for your inbound trip. Do NOT stop the recording.
5 Turn: Take your time to turn around.
6 Acceleration: Speed up to the same power performance as before.
7 Inbound Trip: Ride with constant and same power and seating
position as before.
8 Stop Tracking: Stop your stop watch, GPS-tracker etc. and save the ride.
9 Roll Out: Well done. Now, you can test other positions or equipment.
9 Roll Out: Well done. Now, you can test other positions or equipment."

I can see that instant CdA readings wouldn’t be very useful. There is probably too much noise and you need a lot more data.

To be fair, instant power readings aren’t very useful, either. 3- or 5-second Power are better, but still limited in value unless seen along with a larger snippet like overall, lap, or rolling 5-min Power and/or Normalized Power.

I’ve been testing with Aerotune for a little while (https://www.aerotune.com/) and it’s super easy to use with a Garmin Computer and phone in your pocket and the feedback given runs after runs on the Garmin is super great to have ! Would love to use both apps on the same day and see how they compare !

This is not a good procedure. And they don’t say anything about how they deal with wind; probably they ignore it.

"You will need a power meter, a GPS device and a flat test track to measure your aerodynamics. If you also use a speed sensor, the measurement accuracy increases.

1 Acceleration: You speed up to your planned power performance (watts).
2 Start Recording: Start your stop watch, GPS device etc.
3 Outbound Trip: Ride with constant power and seating position for 1 kilometer in one direction.
4 End of Outbound Trip: Remember the position, it will be the starting point for your inbound trip. Do NOT stop the recording.
5 Turn: Take your time to turn around.
6 Acceleration: Speed up to the same power performance as before.
7 Inbound Trip: Ride with constant and same power and seating
position as before.
8 Stop Tracking: Stop your stop watch, GPS-tracker etc. and save the ride.
9 Roll Out: Well done. Now, you can test other positions or equipment.
9 Roll Out: Well done. Now, you can test other positions or equipment."

This is not a good procedure. And they don’t say anything about how they deal with wind; probably they ignore it.

"You will need a power meter, a GPS device and a flat test track to measure your aerodynamics. If you also use a speed sensor, the measurement accuracy increases.

1 Acceleration: You speed up to your planned power performance (watts).
2 Start Recording: Start your stop watch, GPS device etc.
3 Outbound Trip: Ride with constant power and seating position for 1 kilometer in one direction.
4 End of Outbound Trip: Remember the position, it will be the starting point for your inbound trip. Do NOT stop the recording.
5 Turn: Take your time to turn around.
6 Acceleration: Speed up to the same power performance as before.
7 Inbound Trip: Ride with constant and same power and seating
position as before.
8 Stop Tracking: Stop your stop watch, GPS-tracker etc. and save the ride.
9 Roll Out: Well done. Now, you can test other positions or equipment. "

I understand that without trying it can give you this vision. But it’s actually much much better than you make it sound.

First, there is the Garmin App, and honnestly it’s very very good, you need your phone in your pocket so Garmin connect is connected with your Garmin Edge computer (520/530/820/830/1030 and probably a few others I don’t have a list in mind, personally use Garmin 530 for my aero testing) and then you get feedback after each test (1km out - 1km in).

Required : precise powermeter (as always it seems SRM and Powertap are best for aero testing… same that I’ve heard from people testing on the track… but other brands/models will of course work) + speed sensor with magnet on spokes (I tried Garmin GSC10 and Sigma ANT+ Speed… find Sigma better) + Garmin Edge with Aerotune connect IQ app + Phone in your pocket (or bento or whatever) connected to Garmin device.

So the first time you test you must create a testing route (flat straight 1km, if possible not a windy place, with GPS working Ok and with mobile phone working OK) or use an existing one created by another user. You can also test on a velodrome (option also available on the Garmin app). Then there is a calibration run but from there you are really guided by the Garmin app. Each setup must be tested at least TWICE, but in advanced mode you can test more times within each setup in order to reduce the setup CdA error bar size, I usually test 3-4 times each setups depends on stable my first 3 results were.
The very nice thing is that after your segment is created you never need to press start or stop, you always see your distance to starting point, then it moves to your distance to end point, then tell you to turn around in 200 meters, then gives you a distance to the starting point of your way back, then distance to finish then when you pass “finish line” it send automatically a fit file to Aerotune platform (through the phone) and gives you maybe 5 second later the result for the test, etc.
I must admit the first time you test you should not look at the actual numbers which are given, can be used for comparison between setups but not actual CdA. Then when you do post anylis you will add your weight, CRR, etc. and your results will be corrected.
But the second time you test all this is now taken into account and results are much more accurate and you can really confirm results day in day out, and Aerotune is a machine learning software so the more you test the better it gets.

You are right that there is no wind sensor, but that’s why you test in a not so windy place and going 1km in one direction and 1km in the opposite direction.

Below are a few results from me from August 27th :

1 - Three different setups tested, general results with error bars (I fixed my CRR to 0.0041, not saying it is correct but my goal is to compare different results from the same day)

2 - If I click on the result of setup 1, I enter the setup 1 menu with only my results for setup 1

3 - Back to main page (with all the setups) you do have Wind information, of course calculated but they are not forgotten

Rruff,

I’ll be honnest, I’m still interested in buying an aero sensor and trying other things, mostly to confirm I’m moving in the right direction. But the interface Aerotune (and I’m not linked with the company in any way, just paying my 9,90 euros per month with Paypal) offers is really really great. If you are willing to spend 2 hours on the same 1km stretch testing stuff it really is a great tool. At this point considering how easy it is to do post analysis with Aerotune (with real time feedback + great platform for post analysis) VS how complicated seems to be with aero sensors available (don’t want to give bad review on products I haven’t tested, but reading the manuals it seems I can create actually much more error from installation, calibration run, etc. with the aero sensor than with Aerotune…
I’m still curious about cdacrr app so buying an Android phone ANT+ compatible, Weathermeter, etc. is on my list of “things to do”… but in the mean time I think Aerotune does not get the credit it deserves, maybe it’s not the best tool to know what your Cda exactly is (it would mean knowing CRR for the road surface and tires setup which Aerotune can help you do but I’m still unsure about those results + knowing exactly drivetrain loss…) but it’s a great tool to compare different things and I’ve managed to duplicate my results with different equipments day in day out which means if after the first time you test something you have a doubt after three times testing the same products in different orders and/or using them twice on the same day doing something like Setup 1 = equipment X, setup 2 = equipment Y, setup 3 = equipment X, setup 4 = equipment Y I think you can really start trusting the results…

Hope this helps.

Ps : I’ll let you know when I have the phone and weathermeter, in the mean time let me know if you give Aerotune a shot out of curiosity ;-).

20190827_cda_crr.jpg
20190827_inside_setup_1.jpg
20190827_wind_diagrams.jpg

What units are those for CdA and Crr?

How does it report wind speed and direction?

In your third plot, what is that “+/- 12W” on the power?

What units are those for CdA and Crr?

How does it report wind speed and direction?

In your third plot, what is that “+/- 12W” on the power?

  • just to make it easier to read some zeros are removed… so CdA for example 21.1 is 0.21 and Crr 4.0 is 0.004. I think it must be so it can fit on garmin screen.

  • not sure exactly to be honest.

  • average power with how stable I was… a friend of mine (also on a SRM) was more around +-25W on same route… meaning I’m more stable than him.

I don’t have a flat 1km of road within a reasonable drive, especially one without traffic. None <1% grade, and always varying. Or a straight road for that matter.

Constant power is unnecessary. I assume that if they have that constraint they are dumbing down the calculations.

If you can satisfy the requirements of a flat straight road and no wind, calculating CdA is indeed quite easy, and has been since powermeters were invented. It’s nice that they have an easy to use app for this. The CdACrr app is also easy to use and is much more sophisticated… and basically free.

How on earth are they inferring a wind vector? I can understand how they’d be able to get a headwind or tailwind component by not a direction.

What units are those for CdA and Crr?

How does it report wind speed and direction?

In your third plot, what is that “+/- 12W” on the power?

  • just to make it easier to read some zeros are removed… so CdA for example 21.1 is 0.21 and Crr 4.0 is 0.004. I think it must be so it can fit on garmin screen.

  • not sure exactly to be honest.

  • average power with how stable I was… a friend of mine (also on a SRM) was more around +-25W on same route… meaning I’m more stable than him.

Interesting. If you get a chance (and it’s not too much trouble),

  1. What happens to the CdA, Crr, and windspeed and direction if you ride outbound on your aerobars (or in the drops) and return with your hands on the hoods? (Only the CdA should change, not the Crr or wind).

  2. What happens to the CdA, Crr, and windspeed and direction when you ride outbound with as many full water bottles as you can stuff on your bike and in your pockets, and then empty them at the turnaround and return lighter than you went out? (Only the Crr should change, not the CdA or wind).

I am very interested in the tech… but i think the limit will be accuracy an precision.

I don’t need a sensor to tell me i am more aero on my tri vs road bike. But if i want to compare helmet a to helmet b, or bottle a to bottle b… we are probably talking in the order of a watt or two difference. If the system does not have the precision/accuracy to see the difference… hell, just give me precision… than it is of little value. I can eyeball what should be more aero for free.

I can eyeball what should be more aero for free.
Some people’s eyeballs are pretty good wind tunnels; others, not so much. It’s hard to know whether you’re one of the lucky ones unless you measure.

Interesting. If you get a chance (and it’s not too much trouble),

  1. What happens to the CdA, Crr, and windspeed and direction if you ride outbound on your aerobars (or in the drops) and return with your hands on the hoods? (Only the CdA should change, not the Crr or wind).

  2. What happens to the CdA, Crr, and windspeed and direction when you ride outbound with as many full water bottles as you can stuff on your bike and in your pockets, and then empty them at the turnaround and return lighter than you went out? (Only the Crr should change, not the CdA or wind).

  3. I’d have to test for sure so :

  • CdA : I don’t know.
  • Crr : it’s your choice to calculate Crr with Aerotune or to just use a number and don’t change it, which is what I do since I’m not testing tubes and/or tires. See my image below, “Calc crr” is not choosen so 0,0041 was manually entered by me. The protocol for testing Crr is available in the app → in a setup you do as many test at testing power as you need to and then you do one or two test at half the power of the other tests in order to calculate Crr. I’ll be honnest I use the app to test different setups and compare them, I’m not trying to get the most accurate CdA number I can get. I can be sure of rider+bike weight, can be pretty sure of static weather information, not 100% sure of drivetrain loss on the gear I use when testing, not 100% sure of my Crr on the road I use to test with the temperature of tarmac at time of testingn etc.
  • Windspeed : I don’t know.

2 - Can do, but then for that setup do you want me to enter bike+rider weight with bottle full or empty ?

Like I said before, some people probably want to get the most accurate CdA number they can obtain, and I would not mind having mine too (meaning I get better at Crr testing, I know exactly how much power is lost in my drivetrain on let’s say a 54x13 gear with a chain waxed with MSW with a wax that is less than 300km old, etc.
But where I find Aerotune very useful is at comparing stuff with live results and having a platform where post analysis is simply awesome. I understand what rruff says if there is no wind and you have a powermeter there are many ways to do comparisons (and/or calculate your CdA if you manage to get Crr right, etc.) and I don’t disagree at all, just sharing my experience with Aerotune which I find very helpful for my purpose !

20190827_setups_parameters.jpg

I can eyeball what should be more aero for free.
Some people’s eyeballs are pretty good wind tunnels; others, not so much. It’s hard to know whether you’re one of the lucky ones unless you measure.

But if my eyes measure with a 5% error, and the measuring tool we use to measure my “eye wind tunnel” has a 10% error, is it worth measuring with that tool? That is my point.

But if my eyes measure with a 5% error, and the measuring tool we use to measure my “eye wind tunnel” has a 10% error, is it worth measuring with that tool? That is my point.
How do you know your eyes measure with a 5% error?

But if my eyes measure with a 5% error, and the measuring tool we use to measure my “eye wind tunnel” has a 10% error, is it worth measuring with that tool? That is my point.
How do you know your eyes measure with a 5% error?

It is a theoretical “absolute truth.” But we are getting into “how long is a length of string” territory.

Hello Everyone,

I am happy to answer any questions regarding the evaluation methods of Aerotune, which I developed. First of all, the idea of Aerotune is explained very briefly:

The basis for the evaluation method are algorithms that we have obtained from simulations in which the cyclist is simulated by a mathematical model. Through the use of these simulation models, we can use properties such as Athletes data (including power, weight, CdA value as a function of the yaw angle, Crr value) and track data (including slope, direction) in variation as desired. The simulated results are compared with real measured values to continuously improve the models. Disturbances and boundary parameters (for example wind speeds in all dimensions divided into finite elements, temperature, air pressure and humidity) are also taken into account in the models. In addition, disturbances can be given to the individual measured quantities in order to investigate the influence of measurement errors and thus to be able to determine the accuracy of our calculation method. To validate these models, we have developed a standardized test procedure known as aeroTEST, which allows every athlete to optimize their aerodynamics by themselves and interact with other users in our social platform.

Clearly a theoretical model continues to be flawed since it does not reflect the reality. However, it can determine the parameters presently known and we are interested in with high accuracy. Over the last 10 years my teams has built up profound knowledge and I claim that an aeroTEST is possible with a high level of measurement accuracy despite varying wind speeds with professional algorithms and a standardized procedure.

For practical use, an indication of the measurement error is indispensable. Therefore, we use the Mathematical method of least squares as the solution in our model. With this we can also determine the measurement errors for the fitted parameters. For the comparison of the calculated measurement errors with the real statistically determined measurement errors, we conducted a small non-representative study in which 20 tests were performed by different athletes (positions, power meters, bicycle type etc.). For this purpose, we have compared the statistical measurement error (95% interval) with the calculated measurement error, so that the systematic model errors are corrected here. Thus, a measurement error can be stated for each test, so that the quality of the measurement process can also be evaluated.

For the solution of the model, some special features are to be mentioned, as for example we can exactly determine the height profile. Since the route is driven several times, more altitude data is collected and therefore the altitude profile is approached accordingly with a higher degree of certainty. For this we use the “multivariate adaptive regression spline” (MARS) algorithm. The advantage is that the height profile “automated” is divided into different areas and the sections are approximated with regressions. For example, the height profile can consist of several functions of different degrees, which together offer the best fitting.
Currently, only the data from the day of measurement is used, in perspective, all data collected and obtained on the track is used.

To the questions of Mr. Chung, the following is to explain:
The procedure of the aeroTEST is different from most procedures. Using the app (functions as well without it); several tests of a setup (constant seating position and equipment) are driven. Only if two tests (each round trip) are within their calculated measuring tolerance a new setup can be started. This is how we try to set a quality standard (which is the minimum). The user can decide to increase this by conducting more tests of the setup. To determine the Crr value, a third test (out- and inbound) is required, which is run at approximately half the power used in the first two tests. The model is determined to take a constant Crr value over the three tests and fits it. This allows more data to be used in determining the parameters, gaining in results that are more accurate. I want to mention that we are not yet satisfied with the results of the Crr value. If there is too much wind turbulence on the test day or bad measuring equipment (e.g. lack of Speed Sensor, Quality of Power meter), the Crr value converges only at the limits.
Here are more investigations necessary.

Accordingly, points 1) and 2) from Mr. Chung would have to be adjusted to be a set-up, respectively, so that the aeroTEST can be checked according to Mr.
Chung’s idea.
To conclude, I believe that the athlete’s expectations regarding the accuracy of the CdA value are very high. In general, these expectations are not sustainable. It seems to us that the aerodynamics measurement has been completely theorized. Nobody wants to try a system without knowing that it measures correctly. However, it is unclear to most athletes which measurement accuracy is practically achievable and which factors have a strong influence on it. In addition, I think for most counts the idea that no training is “sacrificed” for aerodynamic optimization.

Various studies show that, for example, an average measurement accuracy of approx. + -1% can be achieved in the wind tunnel. With a CdA value of 0.25 m² or 25 aeroPOINTS as in our example, this results in a range of 0.247 to 0.253 m² (24.7 to 25.3), meaning that at 45 kph this would be a measuring tolerance of approx. ± 4 W. If, for example, results are published in which the CdA value is given on 4 digits without measuring errors, then in our view this can simply be wrong and leads to false expectations for the athletes. In addition to that, the information of results from the professionals, who can only post small improvements this, can easily result in a wrong perception, of both the quality of the measurement method used and the expectation of the personal CdA Value. Therefore, a picture builds up that only small improvements are possible and must be measured with high precision. We have gained quite a different experience here. In fact, we are also skeptical about the indication of the CdA value in m², as in general all values are smaller than 1 and therefore suggest a small value anyway.
Moreover, in this context, it is necessary to think about the measuring equipment. The power meter, for example, is one of the most important sensors for a good measurement. We found that for many athletes it is not clear how high the measurement error of their power meter in reality is. De facto, this usually hardly interests an athlete, but when it comes to the CdA value, better accuracies are expected than the available power meters they use can provide.

In this context, I can only agree with Mr. Chung that there is still a significant need for clarification here.

From our point of view, aerodynamic testing should be part of the training in order to build a better understanding and to improve continuously. One single day cannot create the perfect aerodynamics; there are just too many factors to take into consideration. Testing aerodynamics, however, can make a lot of fun and has successful results that it will become an addiction. So many things can be optimized. For example, here are 5 hand positions, 5 helmets and 5 one-piece suits, which would theoretically have to be tested in each variation, so 125 setups. That is why we should start testing today to understand aerodynamics and add a new dimension to our sport.

Sebastian Schluricke
CEO of Aerotune

Thank you very much for your explanation and coming on here to provide some background and basis behind the calculations. Can you please explain how wind direction is inferred?

Thanks for your questions about the wind direction.

Currently our algorithms convert just in the test route direction. In the past we had good results with fitting the wind direction, if there was a “curve” in the test route with at least 20 degrees of direction change. But we had also no convergence of the wind direction for straight test routes. For example, we could not provide the degree of quality over the evaluated aeroTESTs in our peer group study. So we tuned the parameters for fitting the wind direction to the actual version. Vegetation and infrastructure around the test route also can influence this greatly, which is challenging to overcome in the replica.

In general, our fitting method “searches” for a wind model (wind speeds, directions and turbulence) until the deviations between the real values (cycled) and our simulated values are minimal. With a “curve” you have a bigger chance to fit the wind direction, just because of the different impact of the wind speed before and after the “curve”. Our initial investigations showed us that we have to examine all in reality collected data, similar to our upcoming elevation fitting, to get a better model of the test route.

We are working on getting this to perfection and in the near future we will be able to define the wind direction with an error correctly.

Sebastian:

Sorry to have missed your post earlier; thanks for responding. I’ll work through it today and see if I have further questions.

Late last year during Eurobike and afterwards, there was a lot of buzz from various companies on aero sensors. Notio Konect, Velocomp, Aerolab, and Swissside have since been relatively dormant with no major product announcements, and the conversation has really become muted. In DC Rainmaker’s keynote at the Connect IQ summit, he highlighted that too many companies “came out” at too early a point in their respective developments. Visibility was low and the execution of the technology was fumbling. He even went out to suggest that some of the companies mentioned would be going out of business, in his opinion.
Do you agree?

Why do you think this technology has not created more buzz and interest? What do you think is the missing link? Is it poor user interface, too high price, unattractive product design (Pitot tube)?

DC Rainmaker makes some interesting observations on the first 5 minutes in the TrainerRoad Podcast from Sept 6.

https://blog.trainerroad.com/enduro-limiters-peaking-too-soon-and-more-ask-a-cycling-coach-218/

He is clear to make the following points: CdA by itself is not intuitive and is not a concept that is easily understood by the average Joe. The rider needs to be given clear information on what he/she needs to do to go faster depending on the route profile and/or ride conditions. Having an arbitrary CdA number by itself means nothing. Post ride analysis is also difficult without someone else observing the ride or using synchronized video recording to track CdA and Power changes with noted body position changes. Companies like Notio and Velocomp have not made progress in the market with a compelling enough value proposition that does not involve an Aero expert or coach.

With respect to accuracy, Ray makes a clear point that they have no way to test and compare different aero sensors. Having the smartest minds in the Specialized wind tunnel only revealed what could go wrong in any attempt to try to come up with a test methodology. With this in mind, it then reinforces the idea…should aero information be limited to a number like CdA or should it be something else?

With respect to accuracy, Ray makes a clear point that they have no way to test and compare different aero sensors. Having the smartest minds in the Specialized wind tunnel only revealed what could go wrong in any attempt to try to come up with a test methodology. With this in mind, it then reinforces the idea…should aero information be limited to a number like CdA or should it be something else?

IMO these sensors need to have very good precision and accuracy. The picture blow illustrates accuracy vs precision

To evaluate precision, I do a few repeats of the exact same test and get a number +/- .00x. We can argue what X is. I know people that don’t get .005 at the A2 tunnel and others that claim they get .002 on the road. I get .005 on the road and in the tunnel. That’s my personal “acceptable” threshold

Once you get good precision on an “easy” venue, ie no hills, little wind…you do the same things in more demanding conditions such as hills, wind, non closed loops, short distances…etc. Make these conditions harder and harder. You should be able to get good precision.

Then to see of the precision is precise, introduce known drag and see if the device detects it. This can be with a Compton challenge or the difference between 2 helmets measured through other methods (in velodrome, wind tunnel or chung method)
Ideally I should be able to get the same number from day to day

The better device will be more precise in more conditions with less restrictions on how to get precise numbers. A device able to get precise numbers in 30 seconds in any condition is better than the device that requires a 8 min, flat, no wind velodorome.
The better package will allow you to see where and why deviations from precision occured.
The better product will be the one that can get you up and running wih precise numbers the quickest

For accuracy, these devices should be compared to another test method, be it tunnel, velodrome or chung method.

Once people start comparing this will push the manufacturers to better precision and accuracy.
Once we have precision and accuracy the door to other solutions has been opened

http://cdn.antarcticglaciers.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/precision_accuracy.png