Aero experts, can this be right CdA improvement from 0.262 to 0.204 bij just a frame switch Felt IA to Ku TF1?

Aero experts opinion requested :-).

We have a client that did a comparison test with an aerolab sensor test between his Felt IA disc and the Ku TF1 and went, according to Ku who performed the test, from a Cda of 0.262 (highest Cda in the test runs on his Felt) to a Cda of 0.204 on the TF1 from Ku. And he is not a small guy, broad shoulderd, 80 kg but good athlete, 8.30-8.45 IM finish time.

I find this a huge improvement, almost impossible big when considered the position staying almost the same and also helmet and suit) and I would have expected to see a significant increase in speed with about the same power but that was not the case, there was an improvement but not as big as I would expect with this improvement, but maybe I’m wrong.

A few things that were also standing out during the test was that there was no crank length check (if they were the same), the Felt was equiped with hydration bottles at the back of the saddle, not the same wheels were used and this would have been an easy swap and in the pics in the report the aero sensor seemed to be a little tilted up on the Felt and a little down on the TF1. This also would have impacted the test maybe, I have no experience with the aero lab sensor.

I’m just really curious what the experts would have to say about this test, if we can call it that with some variables not being equal?

I have worked for Ku a year as a consultant in 2020 and we did aero testing in a velodrome using alpha mantis so the bike is not new to me at all and I think it is fast but so fast as they want us to believe with this test. I almost wonder if these improvements that were given to the client are a little or very much coloured by the fact that the manufacturer of the bike is also the one taking the tests :slight_smile:

When we did the aero tests in 2020 they were performed by Gebiomized (we didn’t see any results until a few eeks after the tests were done) and we compared my position the the P5 disc to a exact same position on the TF1, swapped wheels and the crankset with PM for every run, helmet and suit the same, saddle exacty the same. The results are to be found on their website, I’m the tester Jeroen van Geelen (one thing they still swapped is the combined weight, the P5 is the lighter total instead of the TF1) and the lowest Cda for the P5 was when I did a test run adn even swapped the Zipp Vuka AXS aerobar extensions to the Cervelo instead of my normal PD 4525 shape.
You can find my test nere https://www.ku-cycle.com/performance-test/

The differences are so much smaller and also more consistent then with the new aerolab sensor test.

And the tested client and myself wonder if this is even possible to have such a massive difference when the overall position is about the same.
test results added in the links.

Let me know what you think experts :slight_smile:

Jeroen

204 test 1.jpg
204 test 2.jpg
204 test 3.jpg

You mention the wheels were not the same ? Were the tires ?

Did they swap pedals, or cranks to keep the power meter consistent ?

Am I reading this right : 282w for 38.62km/h with a CDA of .209 ?

The tires i’m not 100% sure, on the Ku wheels I’m almost certain GP5000, on the Felt the default Conti Grandprix Sport.
I wasn’t present at the test.

Jeroen

Am I reading this right : 282w for 38.62km/h with a CDA of .209 ?

Yes!

This does not compute :slight_smile:
.

Am I reading this right : 282w for 38.62km/h with a CDA of .209 ?

Yes!

This does not compute :slight_smile:

That’s what I thought……speed with that Cda and power should be much higher, right?

Jeroen

The results from 28th May show 40.62 kmh at 282 W for a CdA of .209. That’s not close at, the CdA would be closer to. 275 for that speed. Something is very fishy.

The results on their website that included you on the velodrome are much closer and I am willing to believe those.

Am I reading this right : 282w for 38.62km/h with a CDA of .209 ?

Yes!

This does not compute :slight_smile:

That’s what I thought……speed with that Cda and power should be much higher, right?

Jeroen

Or Cda was closer to 0.3

I cannot independently verify the testing results, but I own a TF1. There is something dramatically different about this bike. When you are riding a straight line at speed, the sensation of airflow across your legs is unlike that from any other bike. It feels like you are sticking your hand outside a car window. The Ku team talks about a fundamentally different approach to bike aerodynamics, and for a lay person, there is a very perceptible difference in what they are achieving.

This does not compute :slight_smile:
Literally.

Am I reading correctly that the course was 800m out-and-back? To me that implies you’re heading 400m out, turning around and doing 400m back. That can’t be right. Even if it’s not, 800m doesn’t feel like it’s very long (but I’m far from an aero expert—I’m not even an amateur).

And the wind speed in the last column, sorry I don’t know how aero sensors report, but is that combined wind speed (the speed of air against the sensor plus the speed of the wind), or was that the actual speed of the wind on its own?

Am I reading this right : 282w for 38.62km/h with a CDA of .209 ?

Looks like that is the .244

Wind Velocity (mph) 24.04
Bike Velocity (mph) 23.98
crr 0.01
mass rider+bike 83.7 10 93.7
slope 0
gravity 9.8067
power loss 1
Mass of rider (kg) 83.7
Mass of bike (kg) 10
Air Density 1.18897 1.225
CdA 0.244

power wind res 185.2610626

total power 283.8061626

W/Kg 3.390754631

That same power at .209 brings you up to 25.1 mph which is fairly close to the 40.6/7 (kph) the data suggests
.

No.

Am I reading this right : 282w for 38.62km/h with a CDA of .209 ?

Looks like that is the .244

Wind Velocity (mph) 24.04
Bike Velocity (mph) 23.98
crr 0.01
mass rider+bike 83.7 10 93.7
slope 0
gravity 9.8067
power loss 1
Mass of rider (kg) 83.7
Mass of bike (kg) 10
Air Density 1.18897 1.225
CdA 0.244

power wind res 185.2610626

total power 283.8061626

W/Kg 3.390754631

That same power at .209 brings you up to 25.1 mph which is fairly close to the 40.6/7 (kph) the data suggests

You got the crr wrong. More like.004! Not 0.01

No.

The master has spoken.

Am I reading this right : 282w for 38.62km/h with a CDA of .209 ?

Yes!

This does not compute :slight_smile:

That’s what I thought……speed with that Cda and power should be much higher, right?

Jeroen

Correct. Just looking at the 2 pics different wheels, probably different tires, CDAs that don’t compute…I’d go with Roberts detailed analysis : “no”

I cannot independently verify the testing results, but I own a TF1. There is something dramatically different about this bike. When you are riding a straight line at speed, the sensation of airflow across your legs is unlike that from any other bike. It feels like you are sticking your hand outside a car window. The Ku team talks about a fundamentally different approach to bike aerodynamics, and for a lay person, there is a very perceptible difference in what they are achieving.

Not arguing it is a fast bike, but haven ridden this bike quite extensively I never had the feeling as you describe it :-). But all my other bikes are super bikes as well so maybe the differences are smaller or even not there compared yo your previous bike.
But glad ti hear you are happy with yours, it was a fun project to work on and the team indeed are good people.
However, this test raises some eyebrows :wink:

Jeroen

Am I reading this right : 282w for 38.62km/h with a CDA of .209 ?

Yes!

This does not compute :slight_smile:

That’s what I thought……speed with that Cda and power should be much higher, right?

Jeroen

Correct. Just looking at the 2 pics different wheels, probably different tires, CDAs that don’t compute…I’d go with Roberts detailed analysis : “no”

It’s a hell no that doesn’t compute. At 282w I’m doing 45 kph and routinely have Notio sessions with CdA’s in the low .200’s to really high .190’s depending on the road/day/route/equipment I’m working on for my tests.

I mean, I’m like 4mph faster on the same power. 4mph is colossal.

Am I reading this right : 282w for 38.62km/h with a CDA of .209 ?

No, it is 279.6 watt, with a cda of 0.204 at 40.6 kmph with the Ku as best cda.

Jeroen

Am I reading this right : 282w for 38.62km/h with a CDA of .209 ?

No, it is 279.6 watt, with a cda of 0.204 at 40.6 kmph with the Ku as best cda.

Jeroen

Yes, there are two pics/reports. I was flipping between the two and got confused

282w/40.62kmh/.209 cda
283w/38.62/.244 cda

(the 279.6 is one lap, the average is 282)

those numbers make no sense.They are done with different wheels on top of that

Those watt vs speed vs the picture make NO SENSE at all. Someone would have to explain how they got such bad numbers. Yes, one bike seems faster than the other but god knows what voodoo magic they are computing with.

When you look at the 2 positions compared side to side you can see a ton of disparities that could make a substantial difference(s) in CdA between positions. If they used different wheels & tires on top of those differences the comparisons are pointless/useless from a Bike A vs Bike B test.

Now you/they could say Bike A set up like this is faster/slower than Bike B set up like that. When you do that though most consumers are going to say apples to oranges. It doesn’t really provide that much actionable intelligence as to should I or should I not buy this bike.

It’s really, really hard to do bike comparisons, much more difficult with a rider on. For the shootout we did, iirc, it was just over 7h of work to get the 5 bikes as close as we did and even then there were some small differences.

I applaud them for doing this. The rigor needed to make accurate comparisons just isn’t there.