I’ve got IM TX coming up in 12 weeks, and I’m trying to figure out how long my ‘long’ days should be. I was thinking I would do a 4000yd swim followed by a four hour ride and then a 10 mile run, but that kind of sounds like it might be too much. Maybe at 2500 yd swim, 4 or 4:30 bike, and then five miles of running for one long day, and for another 4K swim+3-3:30 bike+10 mile run? I believe in my IM glory days I would do 4hour+8 miles (not sure about the swim). It’s been a long time since I’ve done IM, just wondering what people are doing now.
Similar question for the long run. Is 18 enough or is 20-21 still the magic number? For reference, I’m hoping to run 3:30-4:00 in the race. 18 in training will probably be about two and a half hours, and I will be running around 50 miles per week.
I personally see very little value in that type of long brick workout with a relatively big swim, bike and run all in a row. I would (and have never) done all three disciplines in a row except for races (2 ironmans, several halfs). I am also becoming less and less of a believer in bike/run bricks—I only did 2 “bricks” in my build up for my 70.3 A race last year and ran better than I ever have in that race. Those bricks were 2 mile runs.
The risk of injury on a big brick workout like that is simply too high in my opinion, but you’re probably fine doing 5 miles off the bike if you really want.
As for the long run, 2.5 hours seems about the max IMO.
I might have someone test their nutrition with a 45 min run after a long race-pace bike rehearsal (once) but other than that I’d not have them run any more than 15 min after a long bike ride.
I do feel there’s value in bricks but not after the long ride or coupled with a bigger swim/bike.
It depends on your volume & injury resistance. For most people during Ironman training, 18 miles and above is simply too risky. I’m a fan of the split long run or 2:15 hour long run. This worked well for me in my first Ironman and I ran 4 hours on very low running mileage (was returning from stress fracture). In my opinion, bike volume/fitness is much more important for an Ironman.
Yeah, I hear that. In my past long races (16xIM, one 12 hr MTB race) I’ve kind of broken down and suffered on the run (I know, that’s no shock, everyone does). One thing that I was thinking was that my body just wasn’t used to exercising for that long, and that some longer days might mitigate that a bit. Perhaps that’s naive, and it really is all about fitness (likely).
Anyway, it’s gonna be a good race, thanks for the advice!
I think you need a longer ride, way shorter run most weeks even in the build. You really just don’t need to be doing very long runs after the long ride week in and week out. My last IM I was doing something like 4.5-5.5 hours and a 30 minute run for the weekly ‘long’ day, about 45min to hour swim before. I did one workout of the metric ironman as recommended previously toward the end of my last build, and that worked out pretty well. I was only running about 30-35 miles (4-4.5 hours) per week with about 18-20 mile long days, but easily about 10-12 hours a week riding with short 1-2 miles intense bricks after every ride. Had a 3:45 marathon, 10:12 finish; wish I had a run or two longer than 20 miles but still happy.
It depends on your volume & injury resistance. For most people during Ironman training, 18 miles and above is simply too risky. I’m a fan of the split long run or 2:15 hour long run. This worked well for me in my first Ironman and I ran 4 hours on very low running mileage (was returning from stress fracture). In my opinion, bike volume/fitness is much more important for an Ironman.
My understanding is the BIG MONSTER volume race simulation weekends are kind of “old school” unless your pro or have gifted bio-mechanics that allow you to log very high mileage without injury. I certainly do not, and last time I tried the Sat 5K swim + 20 mile run, and Sun 100 mile ride + 6 mile brick run, I ended up needing two knee surgeries.
The split worked very well for me last season.
Midweek (Thurs for me): Nothing crazy, but some longer sets (eg 8-10 x 400s, build by 100 as 80% race pace, 90%, 100%, 110%) with sighting practice. Form focused 40 min shake out run after.
Saturday: Long ride (I topped out at around 95 miles this year, 3 rides in the 85-95 range) with a SHORT brick run off, 20-30 min max run with fast build to IM race pace – this is more neuromuscular
Sunday: Morning run of around 2.5 hrs on variable terrain with a couple IM race pace miles sprinkled in here or there on flats, just to “dial in” the pace. Evening trail / soft surface run around 1 hour (easy pace).
This was my first season with no major injuries in 15 years of racing.
There is more than one way to skin a cat. I’ve had success with big volume and lots of bricks. My avearge Saturday in the base and build is bike100 miles run 6 miles. I usually have 3-4 runs around 20 miles. I didn’t start off with this amount of volume and I’ve been racing Ironman for 15 years. I now do less speed work than I use to.
However there are people who get it done with a lot less miles, but they train with more intensity and speed work. Long and slow or short and fast both work. You need to be smarter with your training plan and speed work if you are going with less volume.
I do think you need bricks if you want run well off the bike.
Dude, you have done 16 Ironmans, then you know your body way more than anyone on a forum can advise
Ha, if only that were true. I did 16 IMs in 74 months, but when I line up in Houston it will have been 89 months since my last. And I’m 42 with two kids now, so I kind of feel like a rookie again.
It depends on your volume & injury resistance. For most people during Ironman training, 18 miles and above is simply too risky. I’m a fan of the split long run or 2:15 hour long run. This worked well for me in my first Ironman and I ran 4 hours on very low running mileage (was returning from stress fracture). In my opinion, bike volume/fitness is much more important for an Ironman.
My understanding is the BIG MONSTER volume race simulation weekends are kind of “old school” unless your pro or have gifted bio-mechanics that allow you to log very high mileage without injury. I certainly do not, and last time I tried the Sat 5K swim + 20 mile run, and Sun 100 mile ride + 6 mile brick run, I ended up needing two knee surgeries.
The split worked very well for me last season.
Midweek (Thurs for me): Nothing crazy, but some longer sets (eg 8-10 x 400s, build by 100 as 80% race pace, 90%, 100%, 110%) with sighting practice. Form focused 40 min shake out run after.
Saturday: Long ride (I topped out at around 95 miles this year, 3 rides in the 85-95 range) with a SHORT brick run off, 20-30 min max run with fast build to IM race pace – this is more neuromuscular
Sunday: Morning run of around 2.5 hrs on variable terrain with a couple IM race pace miles sprinkled in here or there on flats, just to “dial in” the pace. Evening trail / soft surface run around 1 hour (easy pace).
This was my first season with no major injuries in 15 years of racing.
Yeah, that’s fairly close to my plan. I’m generally planning something like 4-5 hours on Saturday with 4-5 miles in the morning beforehand (occasionally will move that to the afternoon off the bike) and then 15 miles on Sunday. Then the next weekend 2-3 hours with a five mile brick on Saturday and 18 on Sunday.
Your 3.5 hour Sunday run sounds a bit too killer to me, I think I would be rubbish on that second run.
One thing you could do for the second Sunday run, is include walk breaks, (30 sec every 5 min or anytime you notice form deteriorating) or if you’re planning a walk/run strategy whatever you plan to do on race day (e.g., walk 30 sec every mile to simulate walking the aid stations, etc.). It’s less about fitness, more about practice maintaining form under fatigue.
dont brick this stuff, that’s a waste, you’ll get really tired without pushing the limits that you really ought to be pushing. Then running on tired legs like that will increase recovery time.
1:45 morning run
:45-:60 evening run
roughly 4 weeks out
6k longest swim (all by itself)
roughly 2 weeks out
6 hours on the bike (all by itself)
roughly 3 weeks out
I’d drop the runs from what you outlined. I think it’s okay to get in a 4000+ swim early in the day, get some good grub and a few hours later set out for a 4.5-6.5 hour ride. This was my Saturday for my last IM. Sunday was a 1:00-1:15 run with IM intervals and up to 2 hours easy on the bike. My long runs were on Tuesdays.
If you’re hitting 50 mpw, I think you can shoot for a little lower long run and not have to hit 20-21.
My last Ironman my coach had me do a 220km bike (almost 7.5hrs) and then a 14km (just over 1hr) run. Gets in the volume time wise but not killing the legs with an overly long run.
I have never understood the folks that do the big days , a confidence builder I think . Build sensibly instead , do 2 to 3 100 milers and at least one 2 to 2-15 hr run but really you need consistent and frequent run miles - I will get up to about 40 miles per week about 8 weeks out and stick with it til taper including one long tempo run , rest is steady
Longest run off the bike is 20 mins
Last (not super hot) IM marathon was 3-06 and I am 48
I am a also big fan but of double run days per Marky V
Of course to run well you need to be strong on the bike