A Very Crude (But Interesting?) Power/Time/HR Comparison of Aero vs. Road

As a follow up to my “haze me for my position” thread (revised position and pics coming soon to a theatre near you)…

Here is a comparison of a fairly flat 55 mile out/back course, under similar wind conditions, ridden “road” back in January, and aero today (on the bars ~90% of the time). I have maybe 200 miles in the aero position now. For those following the above thread, I raised my saddle back up a bit as .75cm was way too low. I’m about .3cm lower than originally.

January – I recorded the effort as “tempo” in my journal. No wind. Total time 2:47 (1:28 out, 1:18 back). Avg power = 196w. Avg HR = 161bpm (out of 196 max). Comfy road position, little/no time on drops. A week later, I did it in 2:37 (1:33 out, 1:04 back, a few mins shy of breaking the 40k hour… dammit), at 150w out, 232w back.

Today – Total time 2:46 (1:24 out, 1:22 back). Had to coast a few times to relieve pain in neck and saddle/body connection which became very annoying over the last 30 mins. Avg power = 162w. Avg HR = 148bpm.

So, 34w less, with about the same time, and a HR 13bpm lower. My HR is pretty consistent day to day, so 13 beats is material. I should add that my fitness was better in January as well (dammit #2). Now, even though power was low in a pure all-day endurance zone, RPE was a lot higher than that. I lose a lot of power when aero. If I ever will adapt to the position, power-wise, it hasn’t happened yet. I’ll think I’m at 180w, look down and see I’m at 150w. Ouch.

IF you REALLY lose a lot of power when “aero”, I’m guessing you’re closing up your hip/thorax angle. You prevent this by getting more forward. See Rick Ashburn’s pictures and explanations about his position. The neck is often a problem, at least for a while, when adapting to such a forward position, but, “aero” doesn’t have to mean less power. Of course, there are limits…I’m not saying there aren’t. It just tells me that your positioning needs further refinement.

Interesting. And surprising that you were not faster today … I just did an even less scientific test today during a 90 min. ride: “road” for 10 min; aero for 10; low cadence (70+/-) for 10 min.; high cadence (90) for 10 min. and determined I am definitely fastest in the aero position at a pretty high cadence (all tests I tried to stay at a similar HR, 140-145 or 75-80 % of max) … I’m just beginning to re-adapt to the aero position and it feels much easier than last year. I’ve only had my bars back on a week and I can already go 15 min. at a time, take a 1-2 min. break and go again for 15 min and feel fine … Don’t know a thing about power (someday) I’m still trying to figure out the whole heart rate thing. -TB

Yep, I do, as I have tested on a trainer a few times. Loss is 20-35w.

My hip angle, though, is very close to my road position (I ride fairly low in road, at 12cm drop from saddle to bars).

Check out my “Critique My Position” thread (but ignore all the noise about saddle height).

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=378361;search_string=critique%20my%20position;#378361

The power loss is puzzling, I must say. I have a hard time coming up with anything. Your thigh-torso angle is not too tight, IMO. Did you try the lower saddle? Your elbows are a little far from your knees. Does it feel any better to pull your elbows back (just guessing here)?

All I can guess is that the neck and shoulder thing is really bugging you and inhibiting your riding.

Thinking back, I first made my change to a lower aero position during a time that I was doing trainer rides twice a week. I would do the warmup and rest breaks sitting up, and get down in the bars intermittently during the intervals. Like, do a 15-minute interval as 5 minutes sitting up, 5 minutes down, 5 minutes up; then switch the order for the next one. As I worked up to spending the full 15 minutes down, I put a 6" block under the front wheel. This ensured that I was holding the right joint angles, but took weight off my arms and shoulders while I adapted.

By the time I went out for the first long rides, I could stay in the bars easily. I think the short hard intervals in the bars, with rest breaks, really helped me feel comfortable at normal endurance power levels.

Try some trainer rides with the front wheel raised 6-8". That might feel better in the bars and give you a break while you adapt. I like controlled situations when trying something new.

Oh, don’t forget seat discomfort in the aero position, it can be a limiter.

Another thing that might be playing a role here is a tendency to push against the rear of the saddle to anchor your hips. I tend to do that myself…but, as I get further forward, that anchor point can be lost and power tends to drop. I suspect you may be choosing to slide even further back to anchor there when in the road position, and maybe you don’t even know it. It takes a very comfortable saddle to be able to anchor near the rear of it when in the aero position. However, the longer I train in the forward position, the less important the anchoring near the rear becomes.

For short bursts, or climbing a hill, or when dropping to lower rpms, sliding back on the saddle seems to work for me for a little while, then, my quads tend to fatigue very quickly. My guess is that sliding back and anchoring my hips brings more gluteal muscle into my pedal stroke…which, although powerful, this requires more tension in my lower quads to transmit the power. SO, I have to use that technique sparingly and at just the right times (before a downhill or a downwind stretch for example) so I don’t fry my current weakest link…distal quads.

Try this little experiment…get on the rivet and really pull up hard as you pedal. Your watts will be up a good bit higher than your usual wattage in your usual aero position. However, you won’t be able to sustain this for long as your hip flexors will tire. Next, scoot way back on your saddle and really think about firing the gluteal muscles…you might do this better at slightly slower rpms…see your wattage go up again? But, some muscle (group) in your leg will tire out and wattage will drop again. If you can demonstrate to yourself that further forward is more powerful for a while, and further back is more powerful for a while, maybe you’ll understand that right in between CAN BE more powerful than it is now, if you train “right there” enough.

One last thought. Without the saddle anchor point, it seems to me that a powerful pedal stroke demands a bit more out of my lower back. IOW, when positioned forward, in order to get more power, I have to have a strong enough lower back to be able to pull up with my hands…and this takes more strength when the torso is so flat compared to when it is more upright. You know, that “core strength” stuff. Maybe that is playing a role.

Whatever the actual problem, I’ll bet the answer is not much more complicated than spending a lot of time in the new position…assuming you have the joint angles and seat height pretty close to the “correct” positions…which is probably true. Wasn’t there just an article stating that the position a rider is used to becomes their most powerful position? It makes sense.

Good luck with it!

The power loss is puzzling, I must say. I have a hard time coming up with anything. Your thigh-torso angle is not too tight, IMO. Did you try the lower saddle? Your elbows are a little far from your knees. Does it feel any better to pull your elbows back (just guessing here)?

All I can guess is that the neck and shoulder thing is really bugging you and inhibiting your riding.

Thinking back, I first made my change to a lower aero position during a time that I was doing trainer rides twice a week. I would do the warmup and rest breaks sitting up, and get down in the bars intermittently during the intervals. Like, do a 15-minute interval as 5 minutes sitting up, 5 minutes down, 5 minutes up; then switch the order for the next one. As I worked up to spending the full 15 minutes down, I put a 6" block under the front wheel. This ensured that I was holding the right joint angles, but took weight off my arms and shoulders while I adapted.

By the time I went out for the first long rides, I could stay in the bars easily. I think the short hard intervals in the bars, with rest breaks, really helped me feel comfortable at normal endurance power levels.

Try some trainer rides with the front wheel raised 6-8". That might feel better in the bars and give you a break while you adapt. I like controlled situations when trying something new.

Yes, I did try lowering the saddle. I overdid it at first (down .75cm, which made it feel like I was riding a tricycle), then reduced it to about .3cm lower than at the start. Seems OK now that I’m more used to it. My low back felt better and saddle pain was reduced, but that could also just be from more riding. I’ll re-shoot some pics soon.

RE: elbow position, I actually find myself preferring to be more stretched out. I spend more time with my hands resting way out over the shift levers. Now, when a rise in the road comes along, I slide my hands back and my elbows come very close to touching my knees. I move around so much that it’s hard to say what’s “best.”

As for the power loss, I’ve ridden the trainer 2x, for interval sessions. I simply can’t hold the same watts as on my road bike (20-35w less). I alternated between road and aero bike, just to make sure I wasn’t tired or something. Nope. I have 2 trainer sessions planned this week, and with only 5 weeks to race date, I’m actually starting to become reluctant to invest any more time on the aero bike – I may be racing on my road bike w/ aero bars instead (gasp!). I may use your suggestion and jack up the front as a test.

I have another example of power. There’s a 7 minute climb I do on virtually every local outdoor ride. I’ll slowly build power up it and over the last minute or so hit max effort. I nearly always finish those final 20-30 seconds in the 400w+ range on my road bike. On the aero bike… barely 360w.

As I ride aero, I notice that if I pop up onto the Hed bar’s “hoods”, RPE suddenly drops and/or watts go up. I’ll cruise along at watts that match the RPE of my road bike again. Could be comfort, could be that I’m just stronger with a more open hip angle. Either way, it sucks!

Titan, good thoughts.

I move back and forth a lot, so I already know the effect of it. I think I move so much because of discomfort and plain old fatigue from one position. I’ll tell you this much for sure… my quads get smoked far more than on my road bike. Any climb at all, and I’m sliding back on the saddle and choking up on the bars.

Aztec

On your “road” time above…what (if any) % of the time were you using your aerobars (as your pix showed you used aerobars on your road bike).

Interested in your pix.

IMO…at 1st glance, it appears to be a leverage and hip/seat/power position issue.

Final thought – try to isolate the issue. Is it hip angle, or is it weight on the arms. It’s one of the two.

When I first starting tinkering with position, I made a big carpenter’s square out of three yardsticks. Cheap bike fit tool. With the help of my handy spouse, I checked and compared the key angles.

http://tinypic.com/4t1060

On your road bike, have somebody put the corner of the square on the bony part of your hip, and one end through the pedal axle. Note where the other end is in relation to the end of your collar bone (below the collar bone, probably – note how much). Now, do the same on your tri bike. If the end of your yardstick is substantially closer to (or above) your collar bone end, then maybe you are closing down your hip joint too much.

My limit is to always have the end of the yardstick extend out below the end of my collar bone.

Anyway, the square is a handy tool to keep track of position changes and to compare bikes. Some time with this tool and the trainer might help you isolate the issue.

Aztec

On your “road” time above…what (if any) % of the time were you using your aerobars (as your pix showed you used aerobars on your road bike).

Interested in your pix.

IMO…at 1st glance, it appears to be a leverage and hip/seat/power position issue.
0%. Didn’t have them on there yet. Did maybe 2/3 on the drops, 1/3 on the hoods.

Thanks, Ashburn – a solid idea. I may try that.

I have a stationary workout planned for tomorrow, and if I use the TT bike, I’ll re-snap some pics. If not then, then within a couple days.

OK, more data. This time on the road bike, but with aero bars on it. This is not an aggressive position.

Did two laps this time, very easy pace. There was more wind this time, and a heavy dose of rain for 30 mins on the last lap.

First 55 mile lap – 2:50, 149w (155w normalized)

Second 55 mile lap – 2:52, 158w (163w normalized)

These times are not far off from when I did it without aero bars, but the power needed was >30w less. And the power level isn’t much different from the full low position TT bike time. The big difference is that I could go nearly all of the 110 miles feeling strong, and be on the bars for at least 80% of the time. At the end of just 55 miles on the TT bike, I was pretty worn out.

Conclusion… steep and low isn’t for me. At least not yet. I’ll take the less-aero-for-more-power (and lower RPE/greater comfort) option.